Abortion

Originally posted by Devil King
Congratulations! Boy or gilr? Or is it still too early to tell?

But at four and a half months, I'm sure it's more than a clump of cells.

I don't profess to know the moment it crosses over and "deserves a voice", but I know one of them already has one. And the voice that matters most is that of your wife and yourself.

Thank you, you can tell the sex, as the organs are formed, we didn't ask though, as we like the surprise, then again, it's either going to be one or the other, so not much of a surprise.

It's more than a clump of cells are much earlier than 4 months, yet it gets no rights because its recognized as being little better than a tumor.

I don't either, but I personally feel that the abortion time-frame is way too long as the current laws are. I'm all for giving parents the rights on how to raise their children, but "death" is far from telling a mother not to spank her kid.

And I can certainly understand the personal investment in the issue, but are you and your wife going to have and raise the child?

And your wife is lucky; she has you there to make those descisions and baer the burden of the task. Some women are not so lucky.

But, without any of us knowing the moment when the fetus deserves hman rights beyond those of a growth forming inside another human being, it must remain the perogative of the person in whom the fetus is developing. I will admit there is a long timeframe between conception and birth. There's a huge amount of time between putting the condom on or taking it off and a girl tossing a new born in a dumpster on prom night.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Not me. I thought YOUR reference was to something else.

So, we both got that he was referring to humanity. But, somewhere in all of it, you decided to say I was talking about men and not humanity. As I said, I'll run all my posts past you to make sure you get them before I submit them, to avoid you any confusion.

Originally posted by Robtard
Not entirely true, imo. I'm sure you can sympathize with all people "deserving a voice" i.e. the right to be heard so to speak.
My wife is currently 18 weeks pregnant; we went for an ultrasound on Monday, low and behold, this 18 month "clump of cells" as some would call it, looks human, has a heartbeat and responds to sound and movement; it has had these features and aspects for many weeks now. I don't think passaging through a vagina magically makes one from a "cell clump" into human, would you?

I personally think it is human and deserves rights, as being human. Others as noted, think it's nothing more than a "mass of cells", therefore not entitled to anything more than a cancerous lump would be. Is it really that cut and dry were one side is entirely right?

I mean no disrespect (And I say that first because offending isn't what I'm about, as blunt as I can be), but do you not agree that actually being a father is giving you a largely biased opinion?

It's kind of like asking a mother who she thinks the most handsome boy in her son's class is. She's not gonna say anybody but her son, regardless of if he has gigantism or not, because he is hers. Every mother thinks their baby is "smarter than usual". I'm seeing it happen with a family member of my own.

I'm not saying that's "wrong", at all, I'm just saying I feel it's biased. Not suggesting you couldn't summarise an intelligent opinion if you weren't having a kid, I just don't feel that your opinion NOW is entirely objective. I may not have a kid, but I do understand the idea of bias through love, as irrational as it is. I just have the, for lack of a better term, benefit of not having a child either.

You wanted this child, you planned it I imagine, and it happened. That's not always the case, though. I would assume that someone of your understanding would look at that lifeform (The best way I can describe it without us arguing about what degree of lifeform it is), and realise that it would be better to end things for ITS sake when it has no idea and no born life, then to run the dangerous risk of it being born and getting ****ed up. You say it might not happen, and it might not, but if the parents are irresponsible enough (Using a worst case scenario here) to have unprotected sex and get pregnant, it's a safe bet that the child is just better off not being born, in my opinion. If they cannot take care of themselves, it's a bit much to force them into having a baby.

Although this is kind of irrelevant, because to the best of my knowledge you don't think it should be banned, just set with a time limit.

You can suggest adoption, of course, but it's very easy for us to say that. We do not have to endure childbirth, which is why a lot more women seem to be FOR the choice of abortion than men are (In my experience). They have a level of understanding, especially women who have endured childbirth, of what it would be to go through that, essentially for nothing.

-AC

Originally posted by Devil King
So, we both got that he was referring to humanity. But, somewhere in all of it, you decided to say I was talking about men and not humanity.

Indeed. Where did I miscommunicate the above thought? I thought it was kind of implied when you originally figured out that I misinterpreted your use of "humanity"?

Do you see how this can easily and quickly be a two way street? Being an internet ass**** is a double edged sword.

On another note.

Congrats, Robtard. I hope your wife's pregnancy is easy and healthy and your baby is healthy as well. I know I worried my ass off about things going wrong with the baby.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Indeed. Where did I miscommunicate the above thought? I thought it was kind of implied when you originally figured out that I misinterpreted your use of "humanity"?

Do you see how this can easily and quickly be a two way street? Being an internet ass**** is a double edged sword.

I've never denied being the occasional internet *******. Can you say the same about being an internet dumbass?

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I mean no disrespect (And I say that first because offending isn't what I'm about, as blunt as I can be), but do you not agree that actually being a father is giving you a largely biased opinion?

It's kind of like asking a mother who she thinks the most handsome boy in her son's class is. She's not gonna say anybody but her son, regardless of if he has gigantism or not, because he is hers. Every mother thinks their baby is "smarter than usual". I'm seeing it happen with a family member of my own.

I'm not saying that's "wrong", at all, I'm just saying I feel it's biased. Not suggesting you couldn't summarise an intelligent opinion if you weren't having a kid, I just don't feel that your opinion NOW is entirely objective. I may not have a kid, but I do understand the idea of bias through love, as irrational as it is. I just have the, for lack of a better term, benefit of not having a child either.

You wanted this child, you planned it I imagine, and it happened. That's not always the case, though. I would assume that someone of your understanding would look at that lifeform (The best way I can describe it without us arguing about what degree of lifeform it is), and realise that it would be better to end things for ITS sake when it has no idea and no born life, then to run the dangerous risk of it being born and getting ****ed up. You say it might not happen, and it might not, but if the parents are irresponsible enough (Using a worst case scenario here) to have unprotected sex and get pregnant, it's a safe bet that the child is just better off not being born, in my opinion. If they cannot take care of themselves, it's a bit much to force them into having a baby.

Although this is kind of irrelevant, because to the best of my knowledge you don't think it should be banned, just set with a time limit.

You can suggest adoption, of course, but it's very easy for us to say that. We do not have to endure childbirth, which is why a lot more women seem to be FOR the choice of abortion than men are (In my experience). They have a level of understanding, especially women who have endured childbirth, of what it would be to go through that, essentially for nothing.

-AC

You don't have to be afraid of offending me, I'm not eSensitive like others. It could be biased; it could it also be a better informed decision, considering I went through every step of the process before. I don't know for certain.

The same can be said of the opposite, since you've never had a child, you could very well be less objective and more subjective. Who would have the better opinion on a subjective, someone who experienced one facet or someone who experienced both?

Well yes, as I am not antiabortion across the board, as we've spoken before, my main problem is the time-line in allowing an abortion to be legal. (as you noted in the following paragraph)

Well, adoption is somewhat of a moot point, as the babies ready for adoption now, aren't flying off the shelf, unless someone has proof to counter that?

Originally posted by dadudemon

Congrats, Robtard. I hope your wife's pregnancy is easy and healthy and your baby is healthy as well. I know I worried my ass off about things going wrong with the baby.

Thank you. According to our doctor, "you couldn't ask for a better report." in regards to the pregnancy testing. I still worry though.

Originally posted by Devil King
I've never denied being the occasional internet *******. Can you say the same about being an internet dumbass?

Yes. I make my fair share of mistakes that someone could label as "dumbass"...but no more than you.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Yes. I make my fair share of mistakes that someone could label as "dumbass"...but no more than you.

As an outside observer, I disagree, sorry.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Yes. I make my fair share of mistakes that someone could label as "dumbass"...but no more than you.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Yes. I make my fair share of mistakes that someone could label as "dumbass"...but no more than you.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I misinterpreted your use of "humanity"?

Originally posted by Robtard
As an outside observer, I disagree, sorry.

You are entitled to your opinion. Would you like me to wax your anus for DK this time or do you have it on your own?

Originally posted by Devil King

Your thought is not completely coherent. Can you see why?

Actually convey your thought directly.

Originally posted by spidey-dude
clapping

Thank you. It does take a bit of "humble" to admit that one does dumbass things, doesn't it?

Originally posted by dadudemon
You are entitled to your opinion. Would you like me to wax your anus for DK this time or do you have it on your own?

You can claim that my opion is biased, but what do I have to gain from DK? Answer = Nothing. So ponder that while you deal with your butthurt.

Also, he likes it hairy, he's into that now.

Originally posted by Robtard
You can claim that my opion is biased, but what do I have to gain from DK? Answer = Nothing. So ponder that while you deal with your butthurt.

Also, he likes it hairy, he's into that now.

Its called egotism. By putting down others, you indirectly elevate yourself. In this instance, you are indirectly elevating yourself and directly elevating Devil King, relative to me. This happens in with males a lot. This can be attributed to a "pissing match".

Also, answering your own question is a form of arrogance.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Its called egotism. By putting down others, you indirectly elevate yourself. In this instance, you are indirectly elevating yourself and directly elevating Devil King, relative to me. This happens in with males a lot. This can be attributed to a "pissing match".

Also, answering your own question is a form of arrogance.

That could be another possibilty eFreud, but there's alwasy the chance that it was simply an honest outside observatio-opinion. Using Okham's method, I think the latter is far more plausible.

Not really, if it's true.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Its called egotism. By putting down others, you indirectly elevate yourself. In this instance, you are indirectly elevating yourself and directly elevating Devil King, relative to me. This happens in with males a lot. This can be attributed to a "pissing match".

Also, answering your own question is a form of arrogance.

If only Robtard were the only one telling you that you're a dumbass....

But it's cool. In fact, I have an amusing anectdote: I once knew this guy that was (black) totally relevant to this story! He often talked out of his ass, and I ate it up, because it seemed like his stories were pertenant. One day I woke up and he was white! But he never stopped acting black; in fact, he never got over being white! Eventually he moved away and became the Secretary General of the United Nations. I'm scheduled to meet up with him next week at the gym: I'll take a picture if possible! By the way, I was in kindergarten with the guy who invented the cure for AIDS. Tomorrow he's passing out Valentine cards to my unborn child's first grade class! (I'll let everyone know how it goes!) On top of that, he used his UN position to redefine the meaning of the word "Mankind". I'll also let you all know how that goes, two! Also, why are you guys being mean to Deja Vu? He/She is totally an innocent woman/man who has proven she's not a chick! (LOL! I GET IT!)

Originally posted by dadudemon
You are entitled to your opinion. Would you like me to wax your anus for DK this time or do you have it on your own?

none of us like to admit mistakes, even mistakes made when we quickly edit multiple paragraphs where words are spoken we reconsider.

how is your mother?

if I cared, I might send you a PM, telling you to "fix your post" before you made an ass of yourself.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
The problem is, Pez, you see it as a baby at all times, in your mind.

It's not.

You saying "The baby deserves a voice.", is a lot less valid than the woman who created it having the right to do, within reason I guess, what she wants with it.

-AC

That still technically is just an opinion though. .

Anyway this is where I am at with it now. I don't see it as a baby at all times, I understand that a fetus isn't a baby, but I think once it starts developing everything a normal baby would have it is alot closer to a baby than it is just a bunch of cells and flesh. After it has a brain and brain waves why should you be able to kill it then? I personally have come to the conclussion that I don't necessarily want abortions to be illegal, but I would like the window of opportunity to abort to be shortened. 6 or 7 months (or in some cases further along depending on the doctor) to me is way too far along to abort unless the mother has health risks.

Abortion should be allowed. Freedom of choice.

And from what I can tell, a birth certificate is given at...birth. Not conception (with regards to the rights of the baby).