Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Some primates and marine mammals probably fit your definitions...I'm pretty sure there are chimpanzees in captivity that have displayed mental capacity equivalent to a small child...
I read a study were several chimps out performed mentally retarded humans. In problem solving, reasoning etc. etc. etc.
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
I think you overrate babies...
Not really.
One with the capacity to override their instincts.
A baby can be hungry, but if they are in a stubborn angry mood they will override that hunger and refuse to eat.
One that can reason and comprehend ideas.
Babies can learn and understand new concepts and ideas.
One capable of problem solving.
I have seen babies find many clever ways to get out of a crib then you would believe. Even when you in measures in place to stop them a baby can often figure out ways to circumvent them.
I'm not saying they can do these things on the level an adult can , but they are still capable.
Originally posted by Aster Phoenix
Could a bug or fetus do the same?
would you argue someone who can't read is not human?
Originally posted by Aster Phoenix
One that is aware of it's own life actions and the consequences of those action.
should be phrased: self aware (which would need a better definition) and possessing knowledge that other things have minds and that your actions can affect the internal representations of those minds
Originally posted by Aster Phoenix
One with the capacity to override their instincts.
what are instincts?
also, as an addendum, one would have to have a working model, for all animals, including humans, of what their specific instinctual behaviour would be in any given situation.
unfortunately, my feeling is that the term instincts comes from a time prior to the understanding of humans as animals. Much of human behaviour, including moral and altruistic behaviour, is certainly in our "instincts".
for instance, language is instinctual in humans.
Originally posted by Aster Phoenix
One that can reason and comprehend ideas.
what are "reason", "comprehension" and "ideas"
Originally posted by Aster Phoenix
One capable of problem solving.
all life does this
Originally posted by Aster Phoenix
Babies can still problem solve, they can still override their instincts. On some level more then instinctually they are aware of cause and effect. They can learn and comprehend new ideas.
How many newborns have you been around? Because you're absolutely wrong.
Yeah, they'll eventually learn. But at the early stages, they would not meet your qualifications of sentience, ergo, they could be done away with by your rationale.
Originally posted by inimalistMeh... I'm one of those "hardline materialists" that are rather skeptical of the existence of consciousness beyond it being simply a combination of a myriad of underlying modalities; all with basis in physical neural substrates. So in essence you're preaching to the converted... care to join me on the Dark Side?
potentially, and there is something to be said for 30-60Hz gamma bandwidth oscillations, yet I am highly skeptical that anything resembling what people refer to as "consciousness" will develop from these ideas.Like, look at the LGN. there are tons of geniculocortical pathways, yet much of its processing remains subconscious and pre-attentive. lol, the thalamus is a big place and obviously plays a major roll in what we subjectively feel at any moment. My problem here is that, historically, the term consciousness encompasses many things that are already mutually exclusive with modern neuroscience. Gazaniga's work with people who have their corpus collosium cut or from Libet's free will work. Both sort of show our "conscious" self to be highly lacking in terms of the rational, in control, free will having individual that, at least to me, consciousness assumes.
Originally posted by Robtard
How many newborns have you been around? Because you're absolutely wrong.Yeah, they'll eventually learn. But at the early stages, they would not meet your qualifications of sentience, ergo, they could be done away with by your rationale.
Quite a few, the street I live on went through it's own little baby boom a few years back.
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Meh... I'm one of those "hardline materialists" that are rather skeptical of the existence of consciousness beyond it being simply a combination of a myriad of underlying modalities; all with basis in physical neural substrates. So in essence you're preaching to the converted... care to join me on the Dark Side?
lol, oh, I'm there
go hardline materialism!
Originally posted by chillmeistergen
Well, you're talking absolute shit. Prove your claims with actual evidence, or stop making such silly claims.
A baby boom is a period of time when lots of babies are born- i.e. right after the second world war.
A baby room is a room for babies, such as a nursery or room where a baby sleeps.
Originally posted by Da Pittman
I think you may have misunderstood what I was trying to say. I wasn’t trying to justify abortion because of rape but that I don’t think that saying it is a stupid reason was justified. I see the reason behind it and in many cases is just as justified as others are. Some could say that if a genetic pattern for rape is passed on from father to son then the child could be a danger. I’m not saying that this is true or not but some believe that aggression or the tendency for it can be genetic.
That's a very different argument though. I was talking about one specific set up of arguments which are stupid.
Originally posted by inimalist
it can be argued that "consciousness" is illusory.thus, children would never gain it 😉
It's just a matter of definition though. Consciousness might not be like the general view we have, but there is a difference between a tree and a human being, and a certain part of this difference would be called consciousness.
Originally posted by Robtard
I have a 2 week old son, I could argue that besides the instinct to seek out food (via crying and moving his mouth), he is currently not mentally developed enough to reason. Ergo, does his lack of "conciousness" render him equal to a bug?What would this level be?
Didn't notice this earlier. Congratulations on the new born.