Abortion

Originally posted by Aster Phoenix
But "human life" is life with a conscious mind. A fetus does not posses this, so in a sense it is no more alive then bacteria or an insect.

Which is why I said: "when is it a human being that deserves equal rights", as being the issue at hand. What can't you follow?

We also don't know exactly when a fetus gains consciousness, test have shown that a fetus at very early stages (still legal to be aborted) responds to stimulus, does this mean it's conscious? Possible, but not conclusive.

Originally posted by Robtard
You previously said "born", which is why I thought you implied that you think it's a human deserving the right to life at birth.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Even if that is so, my argument for abortion is not based at all about the fetus being a life. It's based in sentience, self-consciousness and independence...or the lack thereof in the fetus.

I think that a commission should be established to sort all this out...then if we don't like its findings, we can just ignore it!

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
But you can separate the individual from his ancestors. I am not my great great great great great great great great great great great great grandfather and our lives didn't begin at the same time.

its a bit outside of the topic

but if one speaks from a specific genetic standpoint, one that I philosophically agree with, we are each simply variation of the first life form, literally. you are your great great great great great great great great great great great great grandfather, with some variation. However, in this argument you are also the first vertebrate to ever exist.

I wont even try the "consciousness doesn't exist" line 😛

Originally posted by Robtard
Which is why I said: "when is it a human being that deserves equal rights", as being the issue at hand. What can't you follow?

We also don't know exactly when a fetus gains consciousness, test have shown that a fetus at very early stages (still legal to be aborted) responds to stimulus, does this mean it's conscious? Possible, but not conclusive.

Bugs also react to stimulus though.

Originally posted by Robtard
We also don't know exactly when a fetus gains consciousness, test have shown that a fetus at very early stages (still legal to be aborted) responds to stimulus, does this mean it's conscious? Possible, but not conclusive.

you are able to draw such a line between a conscious organism and an not-conscious one?

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Ah, sorry my mistake.

Yes, I see.

I think that a commission should be established to sort all this out...then if we don't like its findings, we can just ignore it!

But who would be on the commission?

Originally posted by Bardock42
Well, but as Doug Stanhope says, saying that abortion is only okay in case of rape, is like saying that, yes, the fetus does have the right to live and that it is a human being with rights....except if the father was an *******.

It just makes little to no sense.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Yay... this is back... again...

Pregnancy medically begins at implantation to the fundus of the uterus. Because a sperm penetrating an egg doesn't guarantee that it will implant...

And when one says that "life" or "a life" begins at conception; my favorite question to ask is... is that before or after the male and female pronuclei fuse...?

Conception would be fertilization, which would equate to life beginning. The fact that it could self terminate doesn't negate that life has begun.

Originally posted by Aster Phoenix
But who would be on the commission?

The Pope and some Bishops...I am sure that would be objective 😛

Originally posted by Aster Phoenix
Bugs also react to stimulus though.

Probably because they're alive? What are you on about with this bugs nonsense?

Originally posted by Robtard
Probably because they're alive? What are you on about with this bugs nonsense?

Because I am trying to make the distinction between life and sentient life clearer.

Originally posted by inimalist
you are able to draw such a line between a conscious organism and an not-conscious one?

I personally don't know the exact moment a fetus gains conciousness. Not sure anyone can say for certain either.

Originally posted by Robtard
I personally don't know the exact moment a fetus gains conciousness. Not sure anyone can say for certain either.

Well a certain level of brain development would be needed for a sentient mind to develop.

Originally posted by Aster Phoenix
Because I am trying to make the distinction between life and sentient life clearer.

A bug could be aware that it's alive. So what's your point with the bug bit?

Originally posted by Robtard
I personally don't know the exact moment a fetus gains conciousness. Not sure anyone can say for certain either.

I don't mean to sound offensive...but I don't really know your conscious...or indeed, anyone is.

Originally posted by Aster Phoenix
Well a certain level of brain development would be needed for a sentient mind to develop.

Yeah, sounds about right. When does that happen in a fetus/baby/human?

Originally posted by Aster Phoenix
Because I am trying to make the distinction between life and sentient life clearer.

when you do that, mention it to the Nobel committee, they might have something for you

Originally posted by Robtard
I personally don't know the exact moment a fetus gains conciousness. Not sure anyone can say for certain either.

my apologies for the loaded question

my personal thoughts are that such an exact moment won't exist, and it is an exercise in futility to look for it.

Originally posted by Aster Phoenix
Because I am trying to make the distinction between life and sentient life clearer.

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
I don't mean to sound offensive...but I don't really know your conscious...or indeed, anyone is.

You should really leave that philosophy "are we really here" out of an abortion debate.

Originally posted by Aster Phoenix
Well a certain level of brain development would be needed for a sentient mind to develop.

what is a sentient mind?