Abortion

Originally posted by Dulcie
It's vagina envy. Women don't have a problem with anything men do. The very fact that women are the ones to carry a fetus to full term and give birth to it seems to make some men insecure. I can understand you having an opinion on keeping your own child or not. But don't you have a life to live?
What if I told you to cut your balls off?

Good to see this thread back in circulation. Only 19 more replies to the next checkpoint. Hopefully I can do it.

I mean it in a psychological way. It's much deeper. I never heard or thought that any men was consciously thinking that he's jealous of a woman because of her vagina. It's NOT like a guy saying to his friend: "Dude, I wish I had a vagina." No, no, no.
It's because every kid should be raised as a boy is raised. Boys/men are given every human right since the moment they are born. They can be anything and still be acceptable. If a man is different, that's cool. If a woman is different, that's strange.
And there comes my theory that the only part of a man's life where he is not in full control is reproduction. And maybe insecure men who are intimitated by women would try to cut off her rights. That's where the cutting off comes in.
I am a feminist but not a feminazi, I'm not trying to say that women are better. 'Cause they are not. I'm gender-blind. And I would really like to see a stoner comedy like Harold and Kumar with women. Just to show that not every women is a stupid irritating whining Teri Hatcher. (Though there are a lot of them.)

Originally posted by Dulcie
I mean it in a psychological way.

please please please do not try to pass of feminist narratives as psychology.

Originally posted by Dulcie
It's because every kid should be raised as a boy is raised. Boys/men are given every human right since the moment they are born. They can be anything and still be acceptable. If a man is different, that's cool. If a woman is different, that's strange.

actually, I'd contend this argument. Feminism heralded major advances in the way women are pictured in society. It gave them sexual freedom, and broke down many of the preconceived gender rolls they faced.

While men have had a position of social power, they have never had a movement that so directly questioned those notions held for men.

for example, women are almost entirely liberated in their sexuality. A woman can kiss another woman, etc and do things that, as a society, are not as approved of as between men, and boys hardly can get away with kissing and still maintain a heterosexual image, much like women can.

This also comes out the way men and women deal with social problems and stress. The idea of the strong silent, stoic man causes men to die more often from preventable diseases and conditions, just because the symptoms "aren't that bad".

I'd suggest looking up some interviews of Susan Faludi, such as this one, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSfoMDDS_FI where she discusses such research. Faludi is one of the most highly respected modern feminists.

Originally posted by Dulcie
And there comes my theory that the only part of a man's life where he is not in full control is reproduction. And maybe insecure men who are intimitated by women would try to cut off her rights.

well, since you propose this as a psychological theory, where is the evidence?

can you propose a study to test this? what research are you basing this hypothesis off of?

Originally posted by Dulcie
That's where the cutting off comes in.

aborting a child is not self mutilation

the use of this as a comparison shows almost a contempt for the people you are discussing with. Childish exaggerations are not going to keep this civil.

Originally posted by Dulcie
I am a feminist

:/

Originally posted by Dulcie
And I would really like to see a stoner comedy like Harold and Kumar with women. Just to show that not every women is a stupid irritating whining Teri Hatcher. (Though there are a lot of them.)

telling men that abortion is akin to removing their testicles is not helping that image.

Hey, I am nor sure, is Dulcie crazy or is she insane?

Anyways, I still don't get what is comparable to cutting a guys balls off, obviously denying abortion is not. So what is. Also, how the hell did some film that should, at most, have been direct to dvd, make it into the abortion debate?

Originally posted by Dulcie
It's because every kid should be raised as a boy is raised. Boys/men are given every human right since the moment they are born. They can be anything and still be acceptable. If a man is different, that's cool. If a woman is different, that's strange.

I'm sure the gays, male flight attendants, guys that like BDSM, autistics, male secretaries, men suing for custody of children, men who have been raped and the slightly effeminate will be happy to know that all the problems and social stigmas are completely imaginary/ apply the same to women.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Hey, I am nor sure, is Dulcie crazy or is she insane?

Where I live, crazy. Insanity implies an inability to differentiate right and wrong in a legal sense.

Originally posted by inimalist
please please please do not try to pass of feminist narratives as psychology.

actually, I'd contend this argument. Feminism heralded major advances in the way women are pictured in society. It gave them sexual freedom, and broke down many of the preconceived gender rolls they faced.

While men have had a position of social power, they have never had a movement that so directly questioned those notions held for men.

for example, women are almost entirely liberated in their sexuality. A woman can kiss another woman, etc and do things that, as a society, are not as approved of as between men, and boys hardly can get away with kissing and still maintain a heterosexual image, much like women can.

This also comes out the way men and women deal with social problems and stress. The idea of the strong silent, stoic man causes men to die more often from preventable diseases and conditions, just because the symptoms "aren't that bad".

I'd suggest looking up some interviews of Susan Faludi, such as this one, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSfoMDDS_FI where she discusses such research. Faludi is one of the most highly respected modern feminists.

well, since you propose this as a psychological theory, where is the evidence?

can you propose a study to test this? what research are you basing this hypothesis off of?

aborting a child is not self mutilation

the use of this as a comparison shows almost a contempt for the people you are discussing with. Childish exaggerations are not going to keep this civil.

:/

telling men that abortion is akin to removing their testicles is not helping that image.

I don't know if you understand the concept of psychology. A theory supported by evidence is a fact. This theory is mine, I made up, you can see. It means that I gave something some thought, not that I heard it somewhere and I repeat it.

I didn't mean balls-cutting as self-mutilation. Because you wouldn't have a say in deciding it. It's just a far, far comparison to abortion because I just can't think up anything that's closer to abortion for a man. My reproductive right is having a baby or not. What's yours? I couldn't think of anything else, only testicle removing which I now see has been stupid. I'm sorry. Really, that was bad.

You know why a woman can kiss another woman? Because men like it. They like to watch it. But men don't like watching gay men make out. That's why I can't see how you can interpret that as a plus for women. Oh, and also, men only like to see HOT women kiss. The ones that are probably only "lesbians" for attention. And what would a guy get for kissing another guy? Kicking the s*** out of him.

Originally posted by Dulcie
I don't know if you understand the concept of psychology. A theory supported by evidence is a fact. This theory is mine, I made up, you can see. It means that I gave something some thought, not that I heard it somewhere and I repeat it.

Yes we can see that you made it up. Of course KarenHorney beat you to it and she (along with her mentor Freud) has long since been disproven and shown to have no evidenciary basis.

Originally posted by Dulcie
I didn't mean balls-cutting as self-mutilation. Because you wouldn't have a say in deciding it.

So just, forcible mutilation. Much better. Really makes you sympathetic.

Originally posted by Dulcie
It's just a far, far comparison to abortion because I just can't think up anything that's closer to abortion for a man.

How about having his baby aborted? Testicular removal is far more serious than an abortion (if you made it through highschool bio or psych you should know that) because it has long lasting repercussions in many physiological areas.

Originally posted by Dulcie
You know why a woman can kiss another woman?

Because lesbianism is accepted but male homosexuality is not.

Originally posted by Dulcie
But men don't like watching gay men make out.

Gay men do, but they suffer sever social repercussion that women will never have.

Originally posted by Dulcie
Oh, and also, men only like to see HOT women kiss.

They also only want to have sex with hot women and typically only enjoy nude pictures of hot women. It's evolution. Male models also tend to be extremely good looking.

Originally posted by Dulcie
And what would a guy get for kissing another guy? Kicking the s*** out of him.

And you see that as a positive for guy? Are completely out of your ****ing mind?

Originally posted by Dulcie
I don't know if you understand the concept of psychology. A theory supported by evidence is a fact. This theory is mine, I made up, you can see. It means that I gave something some thought, not that I heard it somewhere and I repeat it.

Actually, a scientific theory has to be supported by evidence. What you are talking about is "a blind guess"...maybe, at best, "a hypothesis". It's not a theory, it's just something you found grabbing in your ass.

Originally posted by Dulcie
I didn't mean balls-cutting as self-mutilation. Because you wouldn't have a say in deciding it. It's just a far, far comparison to abortion because I just can't think up anything that's closer to abortion for a man. My reproductive right is having a baby or not. What's yours? I couldn't think of anything else, only testicle removing which I now see has been stupid. I'm sorry. Really, that was bad.

You could have said sterilization, which would still be worse and a pretty crappy comparision. Sadly, we agree on the general deal with abortion, you just seem to be bend on adding some ridiculous feminazi shit.

Originally posted by Dulcie
You know why a woman can kiss another woman? Because men like it. They like to watch it. But men don't like watching gay men make out. That's why I can't see how you can interpret that as a plus for women. Oh, and also, men only like to see HOT women kiss. The ones that are probably only "lesbians" for attention. And what would a guy get for kissing another guy? Kicking the s*** out of him.

It's probably a plus for women because THEY CAN, while men CAN'T. See, a plus. And don't you think that getting the shit beaten out of you is a negative? For guys.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
I'm sure the gays, male flight attendants, guys that like BDSM, autistics, male secretaries, men suing for custody of children, men who have been raped and the slightly effeminate will be happy to know that all the problems and social stigmas are completely imaginary/ apply the same to women.

You're exaggarating.
I'm sure you're smart enough to know that by different, I didn't mean this. But this is off-topic.

I'm really sorry if I come off as insane. I honestly didn't mean to do that.

Originally posted by Dulcie
Oh, and also, men only like to see HOT women kiss. The ones that are probably only "lesbians" for attention.

Well...yeah.

Why would lesbianism be a turn on if it's ugly women? I support anyone's rights to be with whoever they wish, whatever sex they wish. I only enjoy what I enjoy, though.

I fail to see why idiots say "BUT YOU THINK TWO MEN KISSING IS GROSS!" is hypocrisy. It's not, it's men liking one thing and not the other. "You'd post a picture of two women, but not two fat gay men.", yes, because that's not nice to me. They should be free to do it, though.

Men aren't usually saying homosexuality is wrong...except for women.

-AC

I am sorry.

Originally posted by Dulcie
You're exaggarating.

Really?

Gays: "not really men", insulted, cannot kiss in public, people want to "cure" them
Male Flight Attendant/Secretary: stripped of masulinity
Guys that like BDSM: either deemed "abusive" or "not a real man"
Men Suing for Custody: will always loose unless the mother is show to be totally unfit
Rape: traumatic for women? Extremely. But it's still an order of magnitude worse for men.

Originally posted by Dulcie
I'm sure you're smart enough to know that by different, I didn't mean this. But this is off-topic.

Jobs? Yes, there's still a legitimate glass ceiling in many professions and business is basically a boys club but women can do pretty much what ever they want without be judged. It might take them more work (in fact a lot more) but there are relatively few professions where they'll be seen as weird.

Originally posted by Dulcie
I don't know if you understand the concept of psychology.

lol, why don't you give me the once over 😉

Originally posted by Dulcie
A theory supported by evidence is a fact.

actually, you are a little off.

facts are empirical findings, like the average recorded land speed of a cheetah or the rate at which sperical objects fall to the earth due to gravity

a theory integrates known facts into a coherent explanation. So, the fact that human and chimp DNA is over 98% identical, and the fact that humans and chimps are so anatomically alike are used for the theory that humans and chimps have a recent common ancestor.

Originally posted by Dulcie
This theory is mine, I made up, you can see.

this we agree on

Originally posted by Dulcie
It means that I gave something some thought, not that I heard it somewhere and I repeat it.

well, considering psychology is a science, one needs empirical evidence for their theories.

What you have described is a feminist narrative, not a psychological theory.

Originally posted by Dulcie
I didn't mean balls-cutting as self-mutilation. Because you wouldn't have a say in deciding it. It's just a far, far comparison to abortion because I just can't think up anything that's closer to abortion for a man. My reproductive right is having a baby or not. What's yours? I couldn't think of anything else, only testicle removing which I now see has been stupid. I'm sorry. Really, that was bad.

cool, and I don't think anyone thinks there is an easy comparison to be made here. A man losing his child is comparable, but they ultimately aren't the ones going through with the operation

Originally posted by Dulcie
You know why a woman can kiss another woman? Because men like it. They like to watch it. But men don't like watching gay men make out. That's why I can't see how you can interpret that as a plus for women.

yes, but women can make out with each other and still maintain a heterosexual lifestyle. that is the difference. they have liberation in their sexuality. the concept of male sexuality is very rigid.

you are describing the ever present gap in social and economic power men have.

were women in power like that, and everything remained the same, men who made out with each other for their pleasure would not be able to maintain a heterosexual lifestyle.

Originally posted by Dulcie
Oh, and also, men only like to see HOT women kiss. The ones that are probably only "lesbians" for attention. And what would a guy get for kissing another guy? Kicking the s*** out of him.

yes, but again, you are missing the whole point of it being a woman's choice which is acceptable to society.

its about how the social concept of female sexuality is very fluid and individual, whereas men have extremely strong sexual stereotypes.

what I'm saying is that the sexual revolution was one sided

"I stood at the doctor's side and watched him perform a partial-birth abortion on a woman who was six months pregnant. The baby's heartbeat was clearly visible on the ultrasound screen. The doctor delivered the baby's body and arms, everything but his little head. The baby's body was moving. His little fingers were clasping together. He was kicking his feet. The doctor took a pair of scissors and inserted them into the back of the baby's head, and the baby's arms jerked out in a flinch, a startle reaction, like a baby does when he thinks that he might fall. Then the doctor opened the scissors up. The he stuck the high-powered suction tube into the hole and sucked the baby's brains out. Now the baby was completely limp. I never went back to the clinic. But I am haunted by the face of the little boy. It was the most perfect, angelic face I have ever seen" (Brenda Pratt Shafer, RN).

Abortion Facts

"The old law permitted abortion to save one life when two would otherwise die. The new law permits abortion to take one life when two would otherwise live" (Herbert Ratner, MD).

Abortion and Partial Birth Abortion don't need to go hand in hand.

Oh... of course they don't. Abortion is so nurturing. Why even have this discussion?

Originally posted by ushomefree
Oh... of course they don't. Abortion is so nurturing. Why even have this discussion?

"The old law permitted abortion to save one life when two would otherwise die. The new law permits abortion to take one life when two would otherwise live" (Herbert Ratner, MD).