Abortion

Originally posted by THE JLRTENJAC
not entirely. I'm not saying to completely stay away from things that makes you feel good. That'd be foolish. I'm just saying think before you leap.

Oh, and by the way... the world does not have a single economy.

It's just a phrase. Really, though, if people would not work to achieve good feelings, at least the western world would collapse, as nothing would be bought...or sold...or made.

And again, "think" is not synonymous with "follow what JLRTENJAC thinks is right", most people having abortions do "think" about it.

Originally posted by THE JLRTENJAC
That's not true at all. The best example of dicipline is roman soldiers. They would march into battle... they wouldn't hide, they wouldn't question, they wouldn't try to get out of it, because they knew that it was what needed to be done. Did it make them happy to be marching toward something that would probably kill them? Probably not, but they did it because they had the dicipline to put one foot infront of the other and do what needed to be done, rather than what made them happy.

You refer to a specific example of discipline though. I assume you'd be less happy if everyone was really disciplined and following some nazi orders. That's the whole thing, you want your ideal to be followed with discipline...and just use the word as a blanket statement to excuse your stance.

Originally posted by THE JLRTENJAC
However, if you have less people missusing their right to have sex... you have less people who will desire to have an abortion.

People will be irresponsible, it's what people do. There's nothing that can be done, and shouldn't be done, in cases like this, because it's nothing to do with that. As long as they're not infringing upon people, as they aren't with abortion, it's not a problem that needs solving at the expense of becoming a society like that which is seen in Equilibrium.

Originally posted by THE JLRTENJAC
Simply because you lack the mental capacity to comprehend that if people actually work at something that they can learn to resist such urges doesn't mean it can't be done.

Why should they? Because you happen to dislike their way of life? You're a frighteningly oblivious human being. You essentially feel we should not try to be happy, what else can be said for that level of pure, unfiltered and unadulterary idiocy?

In fact, be responsible. Everything in your KMC profile is offensive to me, and you need to be responsible and remove it. I don't care if it makes you happy, be considerate and remove it. Will you?

Also, you never answered my questions:

"Some people disagree with your opinion of them, they may not feel they need improving. What, are they wrong? Are you right about everyone? You somehow know what's better for people than they do?".

Originally posted by THE JLRTENJAC
read back over my post again... prove to me that you have an intellect. I never said that there was anything wrong with occasionally doing stuff that makes you happy. But do it responsibly with a disiplined mind... and you will actually find that life becomes easier, and in the end you find that you can be happy with simply being alive.

First and again, people needing to "improve" is your opinion. I think most people in this thread would agree you have a lot of things to improve on, like your entire outlook.

There are people who do enjoy sex responsibly, and you still have problems with them. You seem to think that the use of abortions is inherently irresponsible, and thus how can anybody win?

Then again, you actually believe that rape could be reduced if people just stopped trying to be happy. A claim so idiotic, that I'm sure if the legendary Czarina still came here, she'd be calling you stupid.

-AC

Originally posted by Bardock42
You refer to a specific example of discipline though. I assume you'd be less happy if everyone was really disciplined and following some nazi orders. That's the whole thing, you want your ideal to be followed with discipline...and just use the word as a blanket statement to excuse your stance.

Ah, but if we lived in a world, where people were more disciplined... World War II... would have never escalated as out of control as it did. With 2 primary reasons (1) odds are, more people would have realized that what Hitler was doing was wrong and (2) The rest of Europe wouldn't have tried their "Appeasement strategies" and would have stopped Hitler before he got so much land that they weren't able to hold him back.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
People will be irresponsible, it's what people do. There's nothing that can be done, and shouldn't be done, in cases like this, because it's nothing to do with that. As long as they're not infringing upon people, as they aren't with abortion, it's not a problem that needs solving at the expense of becoming a society like that which is seen in Equilibrium.

Why should they? Because you happen to dislike their way of life? You're a frighteningly oblivious human being. You essentially feel we should not try to be happy, what else can be said for that level of pure, unfiltered and unadulterary idiocy?

In fact, be responsible. Everything in your KMC profile is offensive to me, and you need to be responsible and remove it. I don't care if it makes you happy, be considerate and remove it. Will you?

Also, you never answered my questions:

"Some people disagree with your opinion of them, they may not feel they need improving. What, are they wrong? Are you right about everyone? You somehow know what's better for people than they do?".

First and again, people needing to "improve" is your opinion. I think most people in this thread would agree you have a lot of things to improve on, like your entire outlook.

There are people who do enjoy sex responsibly, and you still have problems with them. You seem to think that the use of abortions is inherently irresponsible, and thus how can anybody win?

Then again, you actually believe that rape could be reduced if people just stopped trying to be happy. A claim so idiotic, that I'm sure if the legendary Czarina still came here, she'd be calling you stupid.

-AC

I am NOT trying to say that people need to stop trying to BE happy, but instead need to stop REVOLVING THEIR LIVES around what makes them happy for a moment.

It's not about what I personally find offencive, but it's about what good could be done if more people just started to be responsible.

Godwin'd

Originally posted by THE JLRTENJAC
I am NOT trying to say that people need to stop trying to BE happy, but instead need to stop REVOLVING THEIR LIVES around what makes them happy for a moment.

It's not about what I personally find offencive, but it's about what good could be done if more people just started to be responsible.

It's not, though, is it? Because you're not just saying; "World might be better if people were generally more responsible.", as an idea.

You are actually suggesting that if people stop prioritising being happy (Oh, how horrible), and learn to discipline themselves, then rape might happen less. Honestly, where do you get that?

Though this is about abortion. Where do you stand on abortion?

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
It's not, though, is it? Because you're not just saying; "World might be better if people were generally more responsible.", as an idea.

You are actually suggesting that if people stop prioritising being happy (Oh, how horrible), and learn to discipline themselves, then rape might happen less. Honestly, where do you get that?

Though this is about abortion. Where do you stand on abortion?

-AC

Read back through my posts and you will see where I stand on abortion.

and as to your other comments:

From the fact that when doing things that make you momentarily happy, people will begin to actually begin to think of others before themselves. And would then begin to actually try to improve themselves. When that happens, someone who would have previously raped someone else would have the discipline to resist that urge.

Or, a woman who is raped would have the discipilne to report it in hopes that it doesn't happen to another woman, no matter how embaressing or depressing it is, And when that rapeist is caught a jury would have the dicipline to lock the rapeist away... forever. instead of trying to find reasons to let him off.

And besides, why are we so willing to brush this stuff off as "Oh, people are going to be irresponsible anyway, so let's just let 'em." That is the single most idiotic thing I have ever heard.

It's not, though, is it? Because you're not just saying; "World might be better if people were generally more responsible.", as an idea.

All in all saying "Hey guys, you know it might be a good idea for you to do this..." rarely does anything. There needs to be a stance behind it and I choose to stand up and say "THIS IS WRONG!" because, whether you believe it or not. It is.

Originally posted by THE JLRTENJAC
Read back through my posts and you will see where I stand on abortion.

Ahh, so you're one of the people who are factually and undeniably wrong, on account of believing abortion is murder. Good, that saves me the time of assuming your stance is reasonable in some way you haven't explained yet.

You do know, as I assume others have explained, that abortion is factually not murder, right?

Originally posted by THE JLRTENJAC
From the fact that when doing things that make you momentarily happy, people will begin to actually begin to think of others before themselves. And would then begin to actually try to improve themselves. When that happens, someone who would have previously raped someone else would have the discipline to resist that urge.

1) Improve yourself, focus on yourself. Don't sit around trying to convince people they need improving simply because you feel they do. If they disagree, then you've wasted time.

2) Proof of this, please. Prove this would work. Prove that your theory is anything other than crackpot, overly-selfish theories.

Originally posted by THE JLRTENJAC
Or, a woman who is raped would have the discipilne to report it in hopes that it doesn't happen to another woman, no matter how embaressing or depressing it is, And when that rapeist is caught a jury would have the dicipline to lock the rapeist away... forever. instead of trying to find reasons to let him off.

Do you have any back-up for this theory, or is this just you doing the Leonardo da Vinci drawing of a helicopter and saying "This'll work.", without a shitting clue how or why?

Originally posted by THE JLRTENJAC
And besides, why are we so willing to brush this stuff off as "Oh, people are going to be irresponsible anyway, so let's just let 'em." That is the single most idiotic thing I have ever heard.

Ahh, so you DON'T listen to yourself.

You actually feel that we can erase rape by being nazi-like oppressors of human desire. You are beyond idiocy and into frightening retardation.

In any other year, I'd have sat here debating you. It took me a while, but I realised that people with such radical, extreme and pathetically stupid opinions such as yourself...you can't be debated with, because you're borderlined mentally ill, and thus logic is useless.

So you go ahead with your theories. I am just happy that you have no power, and I'll probably go and be very selfish just to spite you.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Ahh, so you're one of the people who are factually and undeniably wrong, on account of believing abortion is murder. Good, that saves me the time of assuming your stance is reasonable in some way you haven't explained yet.

You do know, as I assume others have explained, that abortion is factually not murder, right?
-AC [/B]

Those "Facts" can be disputed... aslong as your mind is open to the possibility that there is more to the world than that which you can see, touch and feel... but then again... I get the feeling that yours isn't.

You actually feel that we can erase rape by being nazi-like oppressors of human desire. You are beyond idiocy and into frightening retardation.

aah. so you don't listen to me. I never said that we should be oppressors of human desire but that we shouldn't let human desire CONTROL us. There is a difference. You can live a perfectly fulfilled and happy life without letting desire control you. but... then again you are probably too brain-washed to realize that.

Originally posted by THE JLRTENJAC
Those "Facts" can be disputed... aslong as your mind is open to the possibility that there is more to the world than that which you can see, touch and feel... but then again... I get the feeling that yours isn't.

Yes, you're right.

Facts can be disputed if you ignore that they are facts, but who would do that, besides idiots? Nobody.

You are doing it.

2 + 2 = ?

Originally posted by THE JLRTENJAC
aah. so you don't listen to me. I never said that we should be oppressors of human desire but that we shouldn't let human desire CONTROL us. There is a difference. You can live a perfectly fulfilled and happy life without letting desire control you. but... then again you are probably too brain-washed to realize that.

Your argument is:

Control desire = Less Sex = Less abortions.

Why, though? You don't want "less", you want none, ever. You think abortion is murder, you are wrong, and you're totally anti-abortion. Abortion needs to exist, and besides, even if frivolous sex was eradicated, rape would always exist, and thus, abortion would still need to exist for rape victims...which you'd still disagree with and not want to happen.

Nothing you say would work in the real world, it only works in your mind, do you not see that? No? Exactly, because your level of thinking is like being mentally ill.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Yes, you're right.

Facts can be disputed if you ignore that they are facts, but who would do that, besides idiots? Nobody.

You are doing it.

2 + 2 = ?

-AC

See, completely closed to the possibility that there could be more than what we can see, touch, hear or smell.

Originally posted by THE JLRTENJAC
See, completely closed to the possibility that there could be more than what we can see, touch, hear or smell.

Originally posted by THE JLRTENJAC
See, completely closed to the possibility that there could be more than what we can see, touch, hear or smell.

2+2=3 because I think it might be possible.

And everyone knows there are things we can see, touch, hear or smell. Some things can only be tasted. Others are odorless, tasteless gases which we cannot see, touch, hear, smell or taste so I'm really not seeing your point.

Originally posted by THE JLRTENJAC
See, completely closed to the possibility that there could be more than what we can see, touch, hear or smell.

No, I'm not.

How is not being opposed to fact the same as being opposed to there being more than we can detect with senses? How? You tell me how.

You cannot oppose fact, and it's fact that abortion isn't murder. Fact. That's not a matter of subjectivity, it's fact. You cannot deny or dispute fact, that's why they're facts.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Why, though? You don't want "less", you want none, ever. You think abortion is murder, you are wrong, and you're totally anti-abortion. Abortion needs to exist, and besides, even if frivolous sex was eradicated, rape would always exist, and thus, abortion would still need to exist for rape victims...which you'd still disagree with and not want to happen.

Nothing you say would work in the real world, it only works in your mind, do you not see that? No? Exactly, because your level of thinking is like being mentally ill.

-AC

Never said that rape would be destroyed, just lestened. The only way I can even begin to accept the possibility of abortion is if it endangers the life of the mother. and even then I am iffy on it... as for rape? Well life dealt you a bad card. I am truly sorry for that, but that still doesn't give you the right to kill it. You can put it up for adoption. don't kill it.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
No, I'm not.

How is not being opposed to fact the same as being opposed to there being more than we can detect with senses? How? You tell me how.

You cannot oppose fact, and it's fact that abortion isn't murder. Fact. That's not a matter of subjectivity, it's fact. You cannot deny or dispute fact, that's why they're facts.

-AC

But you never consiter the possibility of a soul. That just maybe fetuses have souls and are thus more than you have consitered. In consitering that possibility, your so-called facts can be disputed.

Originally posted by THE JLRTENJAC
Never said that rape would be destroyed, just lestened. The only way I can even begin to accept the possibility of abortion is if it endangers the life of the mother. and even then I am iffy on it... as for rape? Well life dealt you a bad card. I am truly sorry for that, but that still doesn't give you the right to kill it. You can put it up for adoption. don't kill it.

Exactly, adoption, like abortion, is an option.

Nothing to do with you, thankfully. She can kill it if she wants.

-AC

Originally posted by THE JLRTENJAC
Never said that rape would be destroyed, just lestened. The only way I can even begin to accept the possibility of abortion is if it endangers the life of the mother. and even then I am iffy on it... as for rape? Well life dealt you a bad card. I am truly sorry for that, but that still doesn't give you the right to kill it. You can put it up for adoption. don't kill it.

How about leaving the child to die in a dumpster? Does that suit your morals better?

Originally posted by THE JLRTENJAC
But you never consiter the possibility of a soul. That just maybe fetuses have souls and are thus more than you have consitered. In consitering that possibility, your so-called facts can be disputed.

You can't dispute fact with "Maybe that's not true.".

If you can't prove it, then fact remains the part that is taken as truth. There may or may not be souls, I don't know if there are or not, but I know that for FACT, we'll never know. So based on that, you have to judge what actually IS, and what IS, is that abortion is not murder.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
You can't dispute fact with "Maybe that's not true.".

If you can't prove it, then fact remains the part that is taken as truth. There may or may not be souls, I don't know if there are or not, but I know that for FACT, we'll never know. So based on that, you have to judge what actually IS, and what IS, is that abortion is not murder.

-AC

Absence of proof is not proof of absence. People use far left-field possibilities to defend cirminals in court, and these "Possibilities" hold up. And sometimes even get the criminal off, whether he committed the crime or not. Why then, should we not consiter the improbable when thinking of a fetus.

And even at that, if souls do exist, then these so-called facts are not facts at all.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
How about leaving the child to die in a dumpster? Does that suit your morals better?

um... no... that legally falls under the term of infanticide. which is just as wrong.

Originally posted by THE JLRTENJAC
Absence of proof is not proof of absence. People use far left-field possibilities to defend cirminals in court, and these "Possibilities" hold up. And sometimes even get the criminal off, whether he committed the crime or not. Why then, should we not consiter the improbable when thinking of a fetus.

What are those "far left-field" possibilities, you are talking about?

Originally posted by THE JLRTENJAC
Absence of proof is not proof of absence. People use far left-field possibilities to defend cirminals in court, and these "Possibilities" hold up. And sometimes even get the criminal off, whether he committed the crime or not. Why then, should we not consiter the improbable when thinking of a fetus.

And even at that, if souls do exist, then these so-called facts are not facts at all.

Using "These things might exist." doesn't work, because then when asked for proof, you cannot provide any.

-AC