Originally posted by cococryspies
I don't see the point of arguing over when a fetus becomes a "person", its all interpretation.
it is a legal matter
when something is legally a "person", it gains certain rights. One of these rights is the right to not be killed.
it is an interpretation, which is the problem, but it is this interpretation that settles the issue.
Yeah, I'm on the same boat as "right to choose" now. I think it's murder in most cases..but that's for my own religious beliefs.
I most certainly don't want other's religious beliefs forced on me, so why would I expect mine to be forced on other's? If only all relgious people thought that way...
Sure, there's the whole "gotta stand up for your morals" n'stuff, but is that really necessary beyond voluntary conversion to my religion? I mean, sure, we should prevent death and killing as much as possible, but I can understand the 5 month limitation. Makes perfect sense since no baby can survive out of the womb until after 20 weeks. If medical science improves and we can mature babies before twenty weeks, then we have a scientific and ethical obligation to move the ceiling limit back. This is my opinion, though.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Yeah, I'm on the same boat as "right to choose" now. I think it's murder in most cases..but that's for my own religious beliefs
You can't "think" it's murder.
It is or it's not, and it's not.
Murder is a legal term used to describe a kind of killing, and it is not applicable to abortion in any sane or logical way.
You don't get to say "I think it's murder.".
Is it unlawful? No.
Malicious? No.
Human being? No.
Is it the pre-meditated and unlawful, malicious killing of a human being? No.
Then it's not murder.
I cannot believe that, this far in, people still do not get that.
Killing does not equal murder.
-AC
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
You can't "think" it's murder.It is or it's not, and it's not.
Murder is a legal term used to describe a kind of killing, and it is not applicable to abortion in any sane or logical way.
You don't get to say "I think it's murder.".
Is it unlawful? No.
Malicious? No.
Human being? No.
Is it the pre-meditated and unlawful, malicious killing of a human being? No.
Then it's not murder.
I cannot believe that, this far in, people still do not get that.
Killing does not equal murder.
-AC
Is it unlawful? No.
Malicious? No.
Human being? Yes.
Is it the pre-meditated and unlawful, malicious killing of a human being? No.
Now do you see the problem? That one yes in the list that muddies the issue.
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Is it unlawful? No.
Malicious? No.
Human being? Yes.
Is it the pre-meditated and unlawful, malicious killing of a human being? No.Now do you see the problem? That one yes in the list that muddies the issue.
It doesn't, does it?
1) Because that's one element of criteria out of three.
2) You've just agreed it's not pre-meditated, unlawful, malicious killing of a human BEING in the same post as saying it's a human being.
3) It being a human being comes down to time limit, and there are abortion periods where it's undeniably NOT a human being, if at all.
So no, it's never murder.
-AC
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
It doesn't, does it?1) Because that's one element of criteria out of three.
2) You've just agreed it's not pre-meditated, unlawful, malicious killing of a human BEING in the same post as saying it's a human being.
3) It being a human being comes down to time limit, and there are abortion periods where it's undeniably NOT a human being, if at all.
So no, it's never murder.
-AC
We kill humans all the time; in war and the death penalty. I was not being inconsistent. Life is an unbroken chain from mother to child. The idea that we are not human until we are born is stupid. I was a human from time the sperm from my father joined with my mother's egg. I was simply pointing out were the problem is.
Right now, too many people have an entrenched point of view. This stops communication, and blinds people to the truth, that is always in the middle.
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
We kill humans all the time; in war and the death penalty. I was not being inconsistent. Life is an unbroken chain from mother to child. The idea that we are not human until we are born is stupid. I was a human from time the sperm from my father joined with my mother's egg. I was simply pointing out were the problem is.Right now, too many people have an entrenched point of view. This stops communication, and blinds people to the truth, that is always in the middle.
Nah, you weren't. Science pretty much shows that you're not a human being at conception.
Sorry.
-AC
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Nah, you weren't. Science pretty much shows that you're not a human being at conception.Sorry.
-AC
How can science do that? That is the stupidest thing I have ever heard. I am not trying to insult you; I have had this opinion for a long time now. What I think is really going on here is that some people can't handle that fact that we let woman kill their children, so we make up stupid excuses, and convince ourselves that we are right. It is simple a delusion. We should wake up and realize that our mothers have the right to kill us.
It's a human foetus, not a human being.
We are human beings. It's a foetus of the human species, it's not a human being. Just like human hair isn't human, it just has the prefix.
You're not a human at conception, you're cells.
Originally posted by dadudemon
By my scientific definition, it is the complete set of DNA that makes the human. 😐I'm not sure what science AC is using.
The real science.
Not YOUR definition. We all know about YOUR definitions of things, like how abortion is murder, when it factually isn't.
It wouldn't be even if a foetus was a human being.
-AC
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
It's a human foetus, not a human being.We are human beings. It's a foetus of the human species, it's not a human being. Just like human hair isn't human, it just has the prefix.
You're not a human at conception, you're cells...
-AC
You are making a distinction that is meaningless to me. Humans change over their life time, and a fetus is just one of those stages. Face the fact that some humans have the right to kill other humans. If that wasn't the case then our military could not kill; our court system could not kill, and you could not kill someone in self defense.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
You can't "think" it's murder.
No. I can and I will and there's nothing you can do about it. It is a religious belief. 😐
Yeah, that's right. Take your rational thinking and shove it. HA! 😆
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
It is or it's not, and it's not.
For you it is. But not for me. We've been over this. Your opinion (which can be contradictory to science from a scientific perspective) is just that, your opinion. You can claim objectivity and science all you want. I can do the same thing and I think I'm more objective than you are about it.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Murder is a legal term used to describe a kind of killing, and it is not applicable to abortion in any sane or logical way.
Uhhh...dude. We've been over this already almost verbatim. Do I REALLY need to quote those responses to you?
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
You don't get to say "I think it's murder.".
I do and did. Suck it. doped
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Is it unlawful? No.
Depends on the conditions and how it was done. It can be illegal. 😐
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Malicious? No.
Not a prereq for murder. We've been over this already. 😐
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Human being? No.
We've been over this already. This is debatable. Ergo, why this is still being debated still today. 😐
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Is it the pre-meditated and unlawful, malicious killing of a human being? No.
It is premeditated and it is the killing of another human. The ONLY legal requirements for first degree MURDER. 🙂
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Then it's not murder.
Logic fail. 🙂
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I cannot believe that, this far in, people still do not get that.Killing does not equal murder.
-AC
I cannot believe that someone as intelligent and as awesome as you still didn't get it the first time. I mean...good god man. (I lol'd how how much this was like de ja vu.)
I've already clearly stated that I am pro-choice. There's really nothing for you to be arguing with me about.
If you want to argue the SCIENTIFIC points I brought up, go ahead. Those are something that are debatable because the scientific interpretation can be objectively debated.
Let us not talk about the interpretation of murder anymore. Defining murder is not just a law on a book. It isn't objective, and murderers go free all the time. Why would you even use that as a meter stick when clearly there are those defining it as murder? Contemporary law does not mean jack shit in the world of moral/ethics. Once upon a time, it was perfectly acceptable to MURDER black people in America. Hooray for contemporary legal definitions?
What is the best way to decide the definition on abortion? I think they way they are doing it now. If a baby cannot survive outside of the womb with modern medicine, it isn't legally a human. Five months is a perfect definition.
Now, should a young lady be prosecuted for aborting after five months when they know that they are past five months?
ewwwww...that's a tough one, even for me. In this instance, I'd rather God sort that out before I try to judge.