Re: Re: Re: Tony Stark and Batman Vs The Justice League & Avengers
Originally posted by HumbleServantBut in that case, I believe Tony and Bruce have both the intellect, ingenuity and resources to build such countermeasures, whether or not they're given specific blueprints.
They have knowledge of the characters from each other and what their countermeasures did but not how to build them
Originally posted by SmurphWhile I agree that Bruce's countermeasures can be more psychological when it comes to Superman, I think the stories highlight that Bruce ultimately admits that he relies on Superman's psychology as a crutch. Some of his overt counter-measures are literally appealing to Clark Kent. When Superman has no morals inhibiting him, such as during the Endgame storyarc, Bruce realizes that his Justice Buster armor is useless against Superman.
I think Tony does better then, to the extent that countermeasures can be built. He’s an inferior strategist and spy, but Batman’s done the hard work gathering intel and developing solutions. Tony’s the better engineer and one of the few people likely to improve on Bruce’s designs.But “to the extent that countermeasures can be built” is a big if. A lot of Bruce’s prep relies on psychological warfare which is not Tony’s forte.
Also the Avengers are, for the most part, plainly less powerful. The Justice League basically require exploiting weaknesses in their personality because so many members are functionally invincible.
So… Batman wins.
So it's arguable that relying on psychology is as equally beneficial as inhibitive.
Originally posted by Sin I AMHe does. But if you were to consider what Stark's prep can do in the hands of another ruthless character -- which is the scenario of this thread -- Red Onslaught used Stark's prep to defeat the combined might of the Avengers World team, the Uncanny Avengers, X-Men, Medusa, Dr. Strange, Nova and Invisible Woman during Avengers & X-Men: Axis #1.
Does Stark have team wrecking prep feats?
Red Onslaught used Stark's Adamantium Sentinels. It wasn't until the inverted supervillains joined the fight led by an inverted Dr. Doom that the tide turned against Red Onslaught.
I think Bruce could create those kind of Sentinels. Bruce is smart enough, rich enough and ruthless enough to do what Red Onslaught did.
Originally posted by Alex_FerranaI think Bruce more than Tony. But whether that's more beneficial or harmful to the end results is debatable, right? When Bruce considers his Justice Buster armor, he literally reveals, "Dumb, Bruce. You forgot... the suit was designed for battle with Superman. But Superman has limits. Lines he'd never cross. This thing the [Joker] toxin has turned him into..."
And both opf them would use the fact than heroes alwys holds back against them. It's called psychological warfare and "use his own good morals against them".
And that's when the Justice Buster armor gets wrecked.
Originally posted by ODG
He does. But if you were to consider what Stark's prep can do in the hands of another ruthless character -- which is the scenario of this thread -- Red Onslaught used Stark's prep to defeat the combined might of the Avengers World team, the Uncanny Avengers, X-Men, Medusa, Dr. Strange, Nova and Invisible Woman during Avengers & X-Men: Axis #1.Red Onslaught used Stark's Adamantium Sentinels. It wasn't until the inverted supervillains joined the fight led by an inverted Dr. Doom that the tide turned against Red Onslaught.
I think Bruce could create those kind of Sentinels. Bruce is smart enough, rich enough and ruthless enough to do what Red Onslaught did. I think Bruce more than Tony. But whether that's more beneficial or harmful to the end results is debatable, right? When Bruce considers his Justice Buster armor, he literally reveals, "Dumb, Bruce. You forgot... the suit was designed for battle with Superman. But Superman has limits. Lines he'd never cross. This thing the [Joker] toxin has turned him into..."
And that's when the Justice Buster armor gets wrecked.
Agreed. Plus, having good morals and no kill rule isn't a guarantee from being defeated. The character still can be KO'ed on incapacitated without being killed.
Originally posted by ODG
But in that case, I believe Tony and Bruce have both the intellect, ingenuity and resources to build such countermeasures, whether or not they're given specific blueprints.
While I agree that Bruce's countermeasures can be more psychological when it comes to Superman, I think the stories highlight that Bruce ultimately admits that he relies on Superman's psychology as a crutch. Some of his overt counter-measures are literally appealing to Clark Kent. When Superman has no morals inhibiting him, such as during the Endgame storyarc, Bruce realizes that his Justice Buster armor is useless against Superman.So it's arguable that relying on psychology is as equally beneficial as inhibitive.
And Superman even with good morals has defeated Batman even when he had a prep. "Hush" also shows than Batman relies on the fact than Superman is a good guy and won't use his full on powers against him. Even under a mind control from Poison Ivy. Joker Venom toxin, however, was a complete different thing. Batman barely won via Kryptonite Gum in the end, and even there he stated than "Neither of us has won".
I think it's fair to say though... that Bruce tends to have more contingency plans. Which contributes to the idea that Bruce preps for everything. Even failure. He has contingencies for his contingencies.
Whereas Tony... he attacks a problem with a "buster" armor, and... he's kinda done when it fails, right? At least, when it comes to specific opponents.
Originally posted by ODG
I think it's fair to say though... that Bruce tends to have more contingency plans. Which contributes to the idea that Bruce preps for everything. Even failure. He has contingencies for his contingencies.Whereas Tony... he attacks a problem with a "buster" armor, and... he's kinda done when it fails, right? At least, when it comes to specific opponents.
Sort of.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
That's because you forget forum rules
What am I forgetting? Yes he has prep I get that, but Stark has no conclusive evidence on exactly how to bust the Starbrand. There are also many other Avengers. Trying to make a flimsy case into a robust one is certainly a trick, however, the way that you’ve decided to go about is pretty insulting.
Batman isn’t getting past the Starbrand while having his hands filled with the rest of the Avengers.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
That's because you forget forum rules
I’m trying to understand your point of view, but I think that it misses out on the fact that Suzanne can be quite unreasonable. Turning this into an episode of Sesame Street wouldn’t work on her. The Starbrand makes everything about it’s user better, including but not limited to the ability to think on a higher level.
In combat, her dialog is presented in a way that shows that she is anything but naive. View the sum of her battles and you will see.
This is a battle forum, both combatants are there to do battle. Bruce does not possess telepathy, nor are Stark’s suits faster than she is. She is superior to any tech that Stark has ever created. Even Reeds tech is primitive to the Starbrand in terms of scientific engineering. It isn’t a Power Ring that can easily be removed from the host.
Suzanne is a child, this is true, but she also possesses a pseudo maturity. She has the imagination of a child, while also appearing to be far more mature than her years. The Starbrand is powered by imagination. Many people have no idea just how powerful it is, but just remember that Connor had no idea of how to tap into it’s power and he was able to treat the Hulk, Thor, and Hyperion like light weights. Before losing the Starbrand he was battling it out against Abstracts.
In 1v1 battle he’d likely defeat most of the Avengers, but the Starbrand, Wanda, and perhaps a couple others actually have a chance of outright overpowering, or warping his suits with forces that they weren’t built to handle.
How much prep time does he have? Was it ever stated?
Originally posted by Stoic
I’m trying to understand your point of view, but I think that it misses out on the fact that Suzanne can be quite unreasonable. Turning this into an episode of Sesame Street wouldn’t work on her. The Starbrand makes everything about it’s user better, including but not limited to the ability to think on a higher level.In combat, her dialog is presented in a way that shows that she is anything but naive. View the sum of her battles and you will see.
This is a battle forum, both combatants are there to do battle. Bruce does not possess telepathy, nor are Stark’s suits faster than she is. She is superior to any tech that Stark has ever created. Even Reeds tech is primitive to the Starbrand in terms of scientific engineering. It isn’t a Power Ring that can easily be removed from the host.
Suzanne is a child, this is true, but she also possesses a pseudo maturity. She has the imagination of a child, while also appearing to be far more mature than her years. The Starbrand is powered by imagination. Many people have no idea just how powerful it is, but just remember that Connor had no idea of how to tap into it’s power and he was able to treat the Hulk, Thor, and Hyperion like light weights. Before losing the Starbrand he was battling it out against Abstracts.
In 1v1 battle he’d likely defeat most of the Avengers, but the Starbrand, Wanda, and perhaps a couple others actually have a chance of outright overpowering, or warping his suits with forces that they weren’t built to handle.
How much prep time does he have? Was it ever stated?
Good points.
Originally posted by Stoic
I’m trying to understand your point of view, but I think that it misses out on the fact that Suzanne can be quite unreasonable. Turning this into an episode of Sesame Street wouldn’t work on her. The Starbrand makes everything about it’s user better, including but not limited to the ability to think on a higher level.In combat, her dialog is presented in a way that shows that she is anything but naive. View the sum of her battles and you will see.
This is a battle forum, both combatants are there to do battle. Bruce does not possess telepathy, nor are Stark’s suits faster than she is. She is superior to any tech that Stark has ever created. Even Reeds tech is primitive to the Starbrand in terms of scientific engineering. It isn’t a Power Ring that can easily be removed from the host.
Suzanne is a child, this is true, but she also possesses a pseudo maturity. She has the imagination of a child, while also appearing to be far more mature than her years. The Starbrand is powered by imagination. Many people have no idea just how powerful it is, but just remember that Connor had no idea of how to tap into it’s power and he was able to treat the Hulk, Thor, and Hyperion like light weights. Before losing the Starbrand he was battling it out against Abstracts.
In 1v1 battle he’d likely defeat most of the Avengers, but the Starbrand, Wanda, and perhaps a couple others actually have a chance of outright overpowering, or warping his suits with forces that they weren’t built to handle.
How much prep time does he have? Was it ever stated?