Since we now know that Sidious was just toying with Mace when they fought in ROTS, Mace's best feat is being a peer of Dooku.
Meanwhile, this version of Vader (while not yet at his peak) should still at least be on the level of ROTS Anakin, who owned Dooku with ease. Then add in Kenobi (who was > Vader at this point) and it becomes an absolute stomp for the team.
Vader solidly bested Kenobi before his focused amp.
And given that Kenobi had "regained his strength" before the added amp, it implies that Vader was already beyond his ROTS self. I'd reckon that either of the team could solo. Both of them together just makes it spite.
I know some people hate the notion that Vader and Kenobi were above the likes of Mace and Dooku in this era, but it ain't 2005 anymore. Things change.
Originally posted by McPI'm talking all out here. Kenobi had "regained his strength" and was definitely fighting more aggressively then he did in ROTS (which would have arguably put him above his ROTS level), and Vader still beat him decisively in the end. It was only after Kenobi gained the extra focus amp that he was above Vader.
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Emm... not?Kenobi did a mistake by attacking Vader with TK. Before that, Vader lost his balance due to Kenobi's superior bladework. Kenobi did something, that he didn''t before - was agressive and constantly pushed Vader back. Kenobi was clearly superior swordsman.
So Kenobi (with focus amp) > Vader > Kenobi (with strength returned + fighting agro) =/> ROTS Kenobi
Originally posted by Darth ThorI agree. But some people are still stuck in the same mindset they had almost 20 years ago. Things change; it is what it is.
I dont mind given they are the Two OG Jedi/Sith characters.
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Kenobi just fought differently. He had like 0 practice since ROTS possibly, even Vader declared that his strenght returned. Retunerd doesn't mean that he was stronger then before, just because he was more agressive. It's nothing more then a different style of fighting. And he had an advantage in saber fight since the very beginning, not after amp.
You also said, that Anakin bested Dooku with ease. Fine double standard from you. Anakin, in their last two fights, was Dooku's inferior (marginally, but still). Dooku was kicking him, in their TCW fight was constantly forcing him back, while Kenobi was there. Anakin overhelmed him in a second part of the final duel, because of his dark side amp.
When Kenobi is beating Vader its only due to amp and is overally inferior, but when Anakin's doing the same thing, he's far superior, yes?
I don't care if Dooku or Mace are above or below Vader or Kenobi. I like all of them. But it's not about that. Dooku was superior fighter to Kenobi in ROTS. Dooku performed far better then ROTS Kenobi then Vader against his similar version. We can even asume that this second duel between Vader and Kenobi ended when Kenobi was buried. Still, Dooku did a better work then Vader against Kenobi.
Vader was also weakened by his emotion so that’s likely why he didn’t dispose of Kenobi as quickly as Dooku did. It probably is something like this: Windu>Dooku>Amped Kenobi>Weakened Vader>EP6 Kenobi~RotS Kenobi. Still duo wins, especially because Vade won’t be hindered by his emotions like against Kenobi
Originally posted by McPYes Anakin stomped Dooku after briefly channeling the dark side, but that's a moot point since that is how Vader always fights.
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Kenobi just fought differently. He had like 0 practice since ROTS possibly, even Vader declared that his strenght returned. Retunerd doesn't mean that he was stronger then before, just because he was more agressive. It's nothing more then a different style of fighting. And he had an advantage in saber fight since the very beginning, not after amp.You also said, that Anakin bested Dooku with ease. Fine double standard from you. Anakin, in their last two fights, was Dooku's inferior (marginally, but still). Dooku was kicking him, in their TCW fight was constantly forcing him back, while Kenobi was there. Anakin overhelmed him in a second part of the final duel, because of his dark side amp.
When Kenobi is beating Vader its only due to amp and is overally inferior, but when Anakin's doing the same thing, he's far superior, yes?I don't care if Dooku or Mace are above or below Vader or Kenobi. I like all of them. But it's not about that. Dooku was superior fighter to Kenobi in ROTS. Dooku performed far better then ROTS Kenobi then Vader against his similar version. We can even asume that this second duel between Vader and Kenobi ended when Kenobi was buried. Still, Dooku did a better work then Vader against Kenobi.
When Vader said Kenobi's strength had returned, I assume it meant that he was back at the overall level he was at by the end of ROTS (that would surely be Vader's measuring stick, since he constantly brooded over that loss). And I believe it was stated in a canon source that Kenobi was "channeling the force like never before" when he fought Anakin on Mustafar.
So in other words, Kenobi (with focus amp) > Vader > Kenobi (with strength returned + fighting agro) =/> ROTS Kenobi (end of movie) > ROTS Kenobi (beginning of movie).
TL;DR
Mace's best legit feat in canon is being a peer of Dooku in sabers, so there's really no way he's beating this team IMO. At a bare minimum, each member of the team should be close to his level in sabers, and they should each be able to dominate him with TK (since they both have TK showings that are worlds beyond anything Mace has done in canon). Hell I'd argue that Mace would actually do WORSE against this team than Dooku would, since he doesn't even have the option of spamming lightning.
Originally posted by Sheev
ROTS Kenobi (end of movie) > ROTS Kenobi (beginning of movie).
Evidence for that statement? It's not a dragon ball, lol. Kenobi didn't progress after any defeat or battle. He has 3 years of war, he progresset constantly but slowly, and suddenly, he's clearly > himself just a few days ago? It sounds prtetty stupid for me. But since it's shitsney... who knows, perhaps that's more then what's you're thinking of it.
Originally posted by Sheev
Hell I'd argue that Mace would actually do WORSE against this team than Dooku would, since he doesn't even have the option of spamming lightning.
Dooku wasn't using a Force at all in their last fight in TCW, and he did in ROTS after he got an advantage in a saberlock with them. Aside of that he once Force pushed Kenobi ealier.
Originally posted by Sheev
Since we now know that Sidious was just toying with Mace when they fought in ROTS, Mace's best feat is being a peer of Dooku.Meanwhile, this version of Vader (while not yet at his peak) should still at least be on the level of ROTS Anakin, who owned Dooku with ease. Then add in Kenobi (who was > Vader at this point) and it becomes an absolute stomp for the team.
Is there new canon material that confirms Sidious was toying with Mace?
Also, I believe Mace is still Yoda/Sidious level.
"A respected Jedi with powers on par with those of venerable Yoda, Mace Windu was a senior member of the Jedi High Council, and his wisdom and judgement were legendary."
Source: Star Wars Fact File Relaunched #008
I guess it's a legends source that was relaunched and is considered canon once more?
Overall, I agree with your logic in this thread. Well said!
Originally posted by McPIIRC, Galan posted the source a while back, but I can't find it (the search function is crap here).
Evidence for that statement?
Originally posted by McPI'm talking about a forum fight, where the characters would presumably be using their abilities to optimum capacity (based on what they've shown in canon). In which case Dooku could at least spam lightning against this duo. Mace on the other hand has no force feat in canon that can rival them.
Dooku wasn't using a Force at all in their last fight in TCW, and he did in ROTS after he got an advantage in a saberlock with them. Aside of that he once Force pushed Kenobi ealier.
Originally posted by Forschbewithu
Is there new canon material that confirms Sidious was toying with Mace?Also, I believe Mace is still Yoda/Sidious level.
"A respected Jedi with powers on par with those of venerable Yoda, Mace Windu was a senior member of the Jedi High Council, and his wisdom and judgement were legendary."
Source: Star Wars Fact File Relaunched #008
I guess it's a legends source that was relaunched and is considered canon once more?
Overall, I agree with your logic in this thread. Well said!
Originally posted by xPRIMEx
There’s also this quote from Star Wars Encyclopedia (De Agostini) 83 Lightsabers and Jedi Equipment, which is apparently canon:
“The lightsabers may well have been unbreakable, but that did not prevent one of them from being lost during Palpatine’s battle with Mace Windu. Toying with the Jedi Master in anticipation of the arrival of Anakin Skywalker, Palpatine was willing to allow himself to be disarmed to appear more vulnerable when his soon-to-be apprentice arrived. His office window was shattered, and the weapon fell from his hands and down into the depths below when he deliberately left himself open for Windu to deliver a kick to his chest.”
I'd just like to point out that it's still not clear whether Palpatine really threw the fight against Mace.
Post #45 by Lord_Tenebrous has some interesting and fairly recent canon quotes which still seem to imply the opposite:
https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/rots-windu-vs-vader-kenobi-2267581/
If we go by some of those quotes, Mace is probably still Yoda/Palpatine level.