Mace Windu (ROTS) vs Vader and Obi-Wan (both KENOBI E6)

Originally posted by JediMaster97
I'd just like to point out that it's still not clear whether Palpatine really threw the fight against Mace.

Post #45 by Lord_Tenebrous has some interesting and fairly recent canon quotes which still seem to imply the opposite:

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/rots-windu-vs-vader-kenobi-2267581/

If we go by some of those quotes, Mace is probably still Yoda/Palpatine level.

So with all that being said, new canon has left the true outcome of the Mace vs. Sidious fight pretty vague in virtually every source..... That is until the "Star Wars Encyclopedia (De Agostini) #83" was released (which is the most recent and canon source). And it flatout states that states that Sidious WAS toying with Mace the entire time, so that's what we should go by until it is contradicted by a different canon source.

But if you choose to ignore that source for whatever reason, then we are only left with vagueness and headcanon, because no other source in new canon clarifies what exactly happened.

Originally posted by Sheev
That guy used a lot of Legends sources to try and make his case, but that's not how it works. The Episode I-VI novels are non canon (Matt Martin has been very clear about this). Same with statements made by Lucas and Gillard. Aside from the main movies and TCW, nothing released before 2014 matters in new canon. And in new canon, the more current sources become the most authoritative, because it is still a fluid medium. Changes can happen at any time.

So with all that being said, new canon has left the true outcome of the Mace vs. Sidious fight pretty vague in virtually every source..... That is until the "Star Wars Encyclopedia (De Agostini) #83" was released (which is the most recent and canon source). And it flatout states that states that Sidious WAS toying with Mace the entire time, so that's what we should go by until it is contradicted by a different canon source.

But if you choose to ignore that source for whatever reason, then we are only left with vagueness and headcanon, because no other source in new canon clarifies what exactly happened.

It's true that this guy references a lot of Legends and other outdated stuff. But he also quotes "Skywalker: A Family at War", which was published in 2021. De Agostini 83 is from 2020 according to Wookiepedia. While I can't verify the quote myself, Family at War supposedly includes the following:

Meanwhile, in the Chancellor’s office, Palpatine was far from meekly accepting his fate. By the time Anakin arrived on the scene, three of the four Jedi Masters lay dead, cut down by Palpatine’s crimson lightsaber blade before it was lost. The Sith Lord’s fate was now in Mace Windu’s hands alone.
Palpatine had orchestrated so much of Anakin’s life to ensure Skywalker would become his apprentice at just the right moment. When Anakin saw Palpatine cowering beneath Windu’s purple saber, the time had come to choose. The fate of the galaxy rested on Anakin’s decision.

This doesn't seem vague at all to me.

Nah that is still pretty ambiguous tbh. Especially when you consider how this line meshes with the rest of the statement-
"Palpatine had orchestrated so much of Anakin's life to ensure Skywalker would become his apprentice at just the right moment."

For instance; I could easily interpret that line as meaning that Sidious orchestrated his seeming "defeat" at the hands of Mace in order to definitively push Anakin to the dark side. iow he faked being weak and beaten in order to get what he wanted (I.e. a new apprentice).

But my point is only that the De Agostini source is very clear cut-
"The lightsabers may well have been unbreakable, but that did not prevent one of them from being lost during Palpatine's battle with Mace Windu. Toying with the Jedi Master in anticipation of the arrival of Anakin Skywalker, Palpatine was willing to allow himself to be disarmed to appear more vulnerable when his soon-to-be apprentice arrived. His office window was shattered, and the weapon fell from his hands and down into the depths below when he deliberately left himself open for Windu to deliver a kick to his chest."

There is nothing ambiguous about that.

It's funny how Mace-fans use a Stover's novel to prove anything about Mace. Best statement about Mace is still Gillard's "level 9" or "bordering level 9".

But there is many quotes in Stover's novel against Mace, I don't have a book, so without quotes:
1. After Anakin bested Dooku Jedi Council believed that it is a proof that he can stand against Sidious, while Council believed that Mace needed other masters' aid to be able to confront Sidious;
2. Mace's shatterpoint is often use as a Mace great weapon. Mace believed that Sidious' fear forced him to be slower after he destroyed a window; later Sidious stated that it wasn't his fear that Mace felt but Anakin's;
3. Vaapad wasn't enough for Palpatine's FL, Mace was goint to loose, same is shown in ROTS comicbook;
4. Anakin after he saw Sidious' performacne against Macee believed that he [Anakin] can beat Sidious;

But as I know that it's a non-canon now, it's an off-top

Originally posted by McP
Evidence for that statement? It's not a dragon ball, lol. Kenobi didn't progress after any defeat or battle. He has 3 years of war, he progresset constantly but slowly, and suddenly, he's clearly > himself just a few days ago? It sounds prtetty stupid for me. But since it's shitsney... who knows, perhaps that's more then what's you're thinking of it.

I mean we know now he can suddenly amp up mid-fight. So him amping from the beginning of a film to the end wouldn't be too strange at all. Especially given how the stakes had completely changed.

That said, he would need a serious amp to even get to Dooku's level.

Originally posted by Sheev
IIRC, Galan posted the source a while back, but I can't find it (the search function is crap here).

Don't remember posting that specific line off-hand(I'll have to go back and look.) It's entirely possible, and would make sense -- especially with what we know about Kenobi now. I do remember a source stating that Kenobi had to use "all of his power" to defeat Anakin, but that's a bit different than what you mentioned.

Although more sources than not state that Kenobi was able to defeat Anakin for two main reasons:
a.) Anakin's overconfidence(and possible instability.)
b.) Kenobi's intimate knowledge of Anakin's fighting style(as a result of them fighting side-by-side for so long.)

...Which also makes sense.

Originally posted by Galan007
I did?

Don't remember posting that specific line off-hand(I'll have to go back and look.) It's entirely possible, and would make sense -- especially with what we know about Kenobi now. I do remember a source stating that Kenobi had to use "all of his power" to defeat Anakin, but that's a bit different than what you mentioned.

Originally posted by Galan007
Although more sources than not state that Kenobi was able to defeat Anakin for two main reasons:
a.) Anakin's overconfidence(and possible instability.)
b.) Kenobi's intimate knowledge of Anakin's fighting style(as a result of them fighting side-by-side for so long.)

...Which also makes sense.

Originally posted by Sheev
Couldn't those factors also hold true for their fight in the show?

However, after Vader started getting used to the armor, he began developing a new lightsaber style in order to overcome the bulk of his suit. So Kenobi wouldn't have had knowledge of his new style at all.

^ I guess he's changed the more technical aspects, but they did imply a similar fighting mentality that Kenobi is used to taking advantage of. And there was that mirror image move from the flashback that played out again.

Originally posted by Sheev
Since we now know that Sidious was just toying with Mace when they fought in ROTS, Mace's best feat is being a peer of Dooku.

Meanwhile, this version of Vader (while not yet at his peak) should still at least be on the level of ROTS Anakin, who owned Dooku with ease. Then add in Kenobi (who was > Vader at this point) and it becomes an absolute stomp for the team.

Anyway Kenobi wins. He was able to last an ungodly amount of time against a much stronger force user. Kenobi benefitted from familairity but it's still an insane physical feat and Mace has no avenue to outperform Anakin here. He's a much dumber fighter than Dooku, has less raw power than Anakin and his lightsaber style leaves him vulnerable(gillard defensively. Kenobi can tank anything Mace throws at him and Mace will leave openings which Kenobi will exploit.

Either Vader or Kenobi could arguably solo here

Well surely not Kenobi lmao