Black Adam vs Lobo

Originally posted by abhilegend
Superman destroys Lobo pretty much every other time they fight other than AOS 464 which may not be even canon at this point.

Post Kryptonite X amp.

And even with the amp, Lobo was still fully conscious and monologuing when knocked into that space ship. Essentially Lobo was downgraded later on.

It's not only Superman, in general Lobo seemed able to tank everything and anything without any damage at all, Captain Marvel, Guy Gardner, Despero, Mon-El, anyone.

That all changed later, when he got a healing factor but was also being staggered by Batman.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Superman destroys Lobo pretty much every other time they fight other than AOS 464 which may not be even canon at this point.

he's not gonna destroy the toon force lobo we saw with cloning in his own book though

Originally posted by cdtm
And I stand by that. Eradicated Superman was far more aggressive, but also less flexible.

However, against Lobo, it's disingenuous to argue his brainwashing was an impediment when the topic is "beating Lobo down", and we have on panel proof of Superman trying, and failing, to beat Lobo down.

This was part for early 90's Lobo. Captain Marvel and even Despero could not "Beat Lobo down". He simply soaked up any damage coming his way, without a stagger or stun effect, and never seemed to wear down much.

Except against Vril Dox, ironically.

Black Adam is good, but not better then Despero. If Despero can one shot herald levelers yet only get a "not bad" from Lobo, Adam isn't beating him up.

It doesn't matter what you stand by. The same writers who had drunk Lobo perform so well explicitly highlighted the lack of fighting ability on Superman's part and "science must prevail over barbarism." And literally called it the Kryptonian way. Then had the same Superman do better including the double KO when there was no Eradicator influence.

What's actually disingenuous is putting words in my mouth, or bringing up an unrelated mind control example just to avoid acknowledging my points. In fact, if you're going to argue Lobo was handicapped there, please show me. I remember Superman not even noticing Lobo was out of mind control when it happened. If so, how is that handicapping him if it had no noticeable effect? That's an important distinction. The fight you want to say Superman should have fought better has evidence that proves you wrong, while Superman not even noticing Lobo was out of mind control not hurts your argument Lobo was handicapped.

Originally posted by cdtm
Oh, and Eclipsed Superman.

Which happened, but is contradictory with his other showings.

Or it's more indicative of Superman in the mind set you're arguing he was under Eradicator? He beat the shit out of Lobo TWICE. I assume you're not going to argue the Superman was amped thing people use to try and discredit.

Originally posted by Delta1938
It doesn't matter what you stand by. The same writers who had drunk Lobo perform so well explicitly highlighted the lack of fighting ability on Superman's part and "science must prevail over barbarism." And literally called it the Kryptonian way. Then had the same Superman do better including the double KO when there was no Eradicator influence.

What's actually disingenuous is putting words in my mouth, or bringing up an unrelated mind control example just to avoid acknowledging my points. In fact, if you're going to argue Lobo was handicapped there, please show me. I remember Superman not even noticing Lobo was out of mind control when it happened. If so, how is that handicapping him if it had no noticeable effect? That's an important distinction. The fight you want to say Superman should have fought better has evidence that proves you wrong, while Superman not even noticing Lobo was out of mind control not hurts your argument Lobo was handicapped.

Or it's more indicative of Superman in the mind set you're arguing he was under Eradicator? He beat the shit out of Lobo TWICE. I assume you're not going to argue the Superman was amped thing people use to try and discredit.

I was setting up a counter example of Superman vs Lobo without the Eradicator influence.

The truth is, arguing against Lobo being brainwashed helps my case. 😛

Without brainwashing being a factor, we're left with Lobo and Superman. And the fact is, in both L.E.G.I.O.N. 90 Annual 1 and Action Comics Annual 2, Superman was hitting Lobo, and failing to really cause much damage.

And THAT is exactly why I argue the Eclipsed Superman fight is the outlier. It's that one, against three other examples of them fighting pre-Return of Superman. In all three cases, Lobo had the upper hand in straight 1 vs 1, with Superman needing to use his head.

All of this gets us away from the core point: Lobo should take Black Adam.

Even if I gave up the point on Superman, that still leaves many other examples to choose from. Despero is one of the most solid, as it was written by Keith Giffen himself, who created Lobo. (Come to think of it, didn't Giffen write L.E.G.I.O.N.? So Keith himself agrees Lobo > early 90's Superman).

Black Adam has similar physical stats to Superman, so I get the comparisons with Lobo’s fights with Clark. But Teth-Adam’s personality is also very different from Clark’s even when not bloodlusted.

Like Daredevil and Bullseye have similar physical stats but if you threw Punisher into a 1v1 fight with them, Frank is probably going to approach fighting them very differently. Bullseye/Black Adam are simply more brutal.

I’m rambling but I just think Lobo is better equipped to fight someone he knows is not a boyscout. Not because Lobo holds back but because a more ruthless personality would resonate with his own.

Originally posted by ODG
Black Adam has similar physical stats to Superman, so I get the comparisons with Lobo’s fights with Clark. But Teth-Adam’s personality is also very different from Clark’s even when not bloodlusted.

Like Daredevil and Bullseye have similar physical stats but if you threw Punisher into a 1v1 fight with them, Frank is probably going to approach fighting them very differently. Bullseye/Black Adam are simply more brutal.

I’m rambling but I just think Lobo is better equipped to fight someone he knows is not a boyscout. Not because Lobo holds back but because a more ruthless personality would resonate with his own.

A fair point.

I'd be lying if I said this is why I brought up Despero, but I'd be lying. Mainly wanted to impress that 'Bo is really, really hard to KO.

Adam would need to fight smart, because I can't see him simply pounding Lobo until he stops moving. Even accepting Eclipsed Superman, and adding to Vril Dox, that makes exactly two times anyone ever dropped him.

Not a bad record for someone that exists as DC's answer to Wolverine, e.g. a guy who fights everyone in every comic.

Originally posted by cdtm
Post Kryptonite X amp.

And even with the amp, Lobo was still fully conscious and monologuing when knocked into that space ship. Essentially Lobo was [b]downgraded later on.

It's not only Superman, in general Lobo seemed able to tank everything and anything without any damage at all, Captain Marvel, Guy Gardner, Despero, Mon-El, anyone.

That all changed later, when he got a healing factor but was also being staggered by Batman. [/B]

Originally posted by ODG
Black Adam has similar physical stats to Superman, so I get the comparisons with Lobo’s fights with Clark. But Teth-Adam’s personality is also very different from Clark’s even when not bloodlusted.

Like Daredevil and Bullseye have similar physical stats but if you threw Punisher into a 1v1 fight with them, Frank is probably going to approach fighting them very differently. Bullseye/Black Adam are simply more brutal.

I’m rambling but I just think Lobo is better equipped to fight someone he knows is not a boyscout. Not because Lobo holds back but because a more ruthless personality would resonate with his own.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Superman just manhandles Black Adam like he was a child lol.

Superman is beyond pretty much every conventional hero or villain in DC at this time.

Originally posted by cdtm
I was setting up a counter example of Superman vs Lobo without the Eradicator influence.

The truth is, arguing against Lobo being brainwashed helps [b]my case. 😛

Without brainwashing being a factor, we're left with Lobo and Superman. And the fact is, in both L.E.G.I.O.N. 90 Annual 1 and Action Comics Annual 2, Superman was hitting Lobo, and failing to really cause much damage.

And THAT is exactly why I argue the Eclipsed Superman fight is the outlier. It's that one, against three other examples of them fighting pre-Return of Superman. In all three cases, Lobo had the upper hand in straight 1 vs 1, with Superman needing to use his head.

All of this gets us away from the core point: Lobo should take Black Adam.

Even if I gave up the point on Superman, that still leaves many other examples to choose from. Despero is one of the most solid, as it was written by Keith Giffen himself, who created Lobo. (Come to think of it, didn't Giffen write L.E.G.I.O.N.? So Keith himself agrees Lobo > early 90's Superman). [/B]

But you're wrong on Eradicator influence being a benefit to Superman. If it were they wouldn't have put so much onto Superman fighting poorly and he must out science Lobo instead of out facepunch. Kryptonians of that era were cold and logical, not bloodlusted barbarians.

How does arguing against Lobo being brainwashed help him in this? It's irrelevant unless he's going against atelepathy. Which he isn't against Superman unless you count Torquasm-Vo. Or Black Adam.

And at the least Lobo had no noticeable effect on his fighting since Superman couldn't tell the difference between him mind controlled or not. But he could against Lar.

https://bit.ly/3rFMEMD

But was surprised when he saw everyone else was broken from mind control, assumed Lobo still was under control, and why he was still under control.

https://bit.ly/3T9GekI

So it didn't hinder Lobo, or if it did, wasn't noticeable. But between that and Brainiac having to stop him from attacking Vrill II, maybe he wasn't even under control.

https://bit.ly/3rFMS6r

https://bit.ly/3ysaSOe

Though there is the possibility Lobo wasn't directly controlled. Brainiac did claim they weren't controlled("--not my slaves--"😉, but he "--released their true, innermost feelings--!" about Vril junior.

https://bit.ly/3CJOVww

Superman noting how Lar is does contradict it, but it could be that's what Brainiac did initially, then when Superman showed up, took actual control, but perhaps not Lobo because he knew Lobo wanted to fight anyway. Regardless, the evidence doesn't support Lobo being handicapped since Superman didn't notice a difference. Whether Lobo doesn't fight in a manner it makes a noticeable difference, he resisted the control, or wasn't under puppet like control doesn't matter.

And nope, drunk Lobo is the outlier. Did you forget about Superman knocking out Lobo and Lar simultaneously?

https://bit.ly/3rIvDRT

https://bit.ly/3ROKSTS

And you claim Lobo has only been dropped twice, once by Eclipsed Superman, once by Vril? In addition to the fight against Lobo and Lar, Superman dropped Lobo TWICE in DARKNESS WITHIN. The super speed punching bag--

https://bit.ly/3EqUjWD

--and later after Lobo had help from the L.E.G.I.O.N., he hurt Lobo so badly Lobo was barely breathing--

https://bit.ly/3CKCUag

https://bit.ly/3T3LYfE

And yes I know the fight lasted longer, I was merely disproving your claim Lobo was only dropped twice. Also the fight you argue Lobo was mind controlled by Brainiac had Superman drop him there too. 😆 Though the rock coming back.

https://bit.ly/3fV7Onc

https://bit.ly/3Ve3L5N

Lobo recovering quickly doesn't change the fact he was dropped, when you claim he was only dropped twice. IIRC him and Entrigan simultaneously KOed each other in one of their fights. So Superman has dropped/KOed him at least 4 times, Vril once, Entrigan once(unless I'm misremembering), so at least 6 times.

And it's canon Superman, after his powers started developing, never hit anyone as hard as ge could until at the end against Doomsday in DOS.

I'm fine with not counting the Eclipso fights as him not hitting as hard as he can, as I don't recall them remembering what happened while Eclipsed, but Eradicator wasn't controlling him like a puppet, but altering his personality. So Superman did not hit Lobo as hard as he could. The best you can argue is hit harder than normal. So except maybe the Eclipsed fights, Superman has twice dropped/KOed without hitting as hard as he could. But the second Eclipsed fight he had Lobo hurt BADLY so maybe he did hit hard as he could.

The Despero fight, while impressive, I wouldn't rate as highly as some of what Adam has done.

Originally posted by abhilegend

Comparable physical stats lol.

Superman just manhandles Black Adam like he was a child lol.

Superman is beyond pretty much every conventional hero or villain in DC at this time.

To be fair he could have meant Superman Pre-DOS since those Lobo fights are what's getting debated.

But then we could compare Superman of that era restraining Blaze to Blaze making Adam her b!tch with one hand IIRC under the same writer.

Originally posted by MrMind
he's not gonna destroy the toon force lobo we saw with cloning in his own book though

This. I thought we were using toon force Lobo (whatever that means; it's still canon right?)

Originally posted by Delta1938
To be fair he could have meant Superman Pre-DOS since those Lobo fights are what's getting debated.

But then we could compare Superman of that era restraining Blaze to Blaze making Adam her b!tch with one hand IIRC under the same writer.

Was that from the Underworld event? Only other appearance of Blaze I can think of off hand, and don't remember Adam in the event.

Also, are you thinking of Blaze or Satanus? Because Superman definitely restrained Lord Satanus, even seemed to cause him pain.

Originally posted by cdtm
Was that from the Underworld event? Only other appearance of Blaze I can think of off hand, and don't remember Adam in the event.

Also, are you thinking of Blaze or Satanus? Because Superman definitely restrained Lord Satanus, even seemed to cause him pain.

It was Billy's series tying into UNDERWORLD UNLEASHED, it was Adam. And I am thinking of Blaze. Superman restrained her in a dimension he was being drained in while Satanus did a spell or something to produce an energy blast that looked to disintegrate her IIRC. While Superman was still restraining her. So he took some of the blast while weakened. Anyway I think but am not 100% sure it was under the same writer as POWER OF SHAZAM!.

Originally posted by Delta1938
It was Billy's series tying into UNDERWORLD UNLEASHED, it was Adam. And I am thinking of Blaze. Superman restrained her in a dimension he was being drained in while Satanus did a spell or something to produce an energy blast that looked to disintegrate her IIRC. While Superman was still restraining her. So he took some of the blast while weakened. Anyway I think but am not 100% sure it was under the same writer as POWER OF SHAZAM!.

Didn't like the event tbh. I never could figure out Neron's power level, one moment he's repelling The Spectre under Ostrander, the next he's being knocked around by Alan Scott and Kyle Raynor.

I'd imagine Lobo at his best could at least stalemate him.

Black Adam is comparable to Superman physically, so I would give him the edge here.

hohoho

He really does try, bless him.

Originally posted by carver9
Black Adam is comparable to Superman physically, so I would give him the edge here.

Are we having the BZ or not?

Originally posted by carver9
Black Adam is comparable to Superman physically, so I would give him the edge here.

Originally posted by cdtm
Didn't like the event tbh. I never could figure out Neron's power level, one moment he's repelling The Spectre under Ostrander, the next he's being knocked around by Alan Scott and Kyle Raynor.

I'd imagine Lobo at his best could at least stalemate him.

What does any of this have to do with anything? And what about Lobo? I assume you mean at the least stalemate Adam but the way you transitioned to that makes it look like you mean Neron. Also I think you spelled Kyle's name wrong.

Originally posted by Delta1938
What does any of this have to do with anything? And what about Lobo? I assume you mean at the least stalemate Adam but the way you transitioned to that makes it look like you mean Neron. Also I think you spelled Kyle's name wrong.

Nothing about the topic, was just an aside.

The Adam vs Exodus thread is actually showing some good reasons on why Lobo should win though. 🙂