Originally posted by Darth Thor
Because they don't believe in an Apartheid state? Something wrong with that?Hamas would actually accept a two state solution (they've agreed to that from many years back). But in reality that wouldn't work either.
The only way for peace is to give all Palestinians the same right of return to that land that Jews have. With the same reparations/funding in place. And with equal rights and representation. But that would no longer be Israel.
I don't recall Hamas ever agreeing to it, although there's a wealth of information to shift through to verify such a statement. If anything, their behavior since taking power is the exact opposite of moving towards this solution and they've done nothing but antagonize and make the situation worse. It's telling that polls in Gaza and Israel have been rapidly shifting towards both populations thinking a Two-State solution is impossible or not favorable.
As for peace, good luck. Islamist extremists have been about killing Jews and non-believers since the dark ages. It started with Medina and likely won't stop until the world is purged of them. And when they're done with that, they'll come for the Christians, and the gays and so on. You can't make peace with someone just looking for a chance to kill your people.
Originally posted by Robtard
Israel's apartheid practices are truly shit, but apartheid isn't killing everyone.Everything I hear from Hamas spokesmen is they're not for the two state solution, they simply want Israel gone. You can't find common ground with that. If there is indeed a more moderate faction in Hamas, great, but they don't seem to be in control.
I disagree, I think the two-state could potentially work, if Palestine is built to the point people are not living in squalor. It's the extremist on both sides that will not allow it to even have breath.
Basically, Hamas hasn't allowed any elections and holds Gaza in its grip, so no meaningful diplomacy can occur. You're right that growing extremist factions in Israel are making things worse, and Hamas won't relinquish control. The Palestinian Authority isn't a great alternative either. The problem is that you have generations of festering, stoked hatred and bad conditions just making a perfect storm for more subsequent hatred and terrorism.
You could stop the war, right now, remove Hamas as if by magic, bring back the hostages and the dead on both sides, and it'd just start up in a few months anyways.
Originally posted by rudester
I'll answer that. 100 kidnapped Israelis does not justify the killing and bombing of an entire city,
True. But Israel hasn't killed an entire city. Bombed it after everyone was gone, sure.
You seem to be glossing over the severity of the initial Hama attack as well here. The brutality of it, the claiming of prisoners, most of which have not been released. Some found dead, paraded around the backs of trucks while citizens spit and hack at the bodies.
killing 10,000 Palestinians.
I'm not going to step on a landmine and say I condone the deaths of Gazan civilians (because I don't; I actually started getting really bothered by it in the beginning of this war and began looking more and more into the topic because every day it would pop up in the news and upset me), but it has been pointed out that even when the IDF warned Gazans to move, Hamas made them stay. Hamas has a culpability for some civilian deaths because they don't even care about their own people and use them for shields as well.
I'm not sure what you think the alternative is here; war is awful. War should never be the answer. But when extremists who don't think you have a right to exist at all, two state or no, attack and rape, behead, and capture your people on a religious holiday fall back and hide behind hospitals and civilians, what is the proper course of action? Pacifism? Some kind of diplomacy? Strongly worded letters?
Tell me: what should people do in the darkest of times that is ethically correct?
Because I think the whole point about this topic is that there's no happy easy answer. It's extremely difficult, and our views and perspectives may change with time, or evidence, or even personal life experience. But at the same time I refuse to say Israel should take that laying down.
And to accuse Palestinians of being terrorists for protecting Gaza--the west bank and trying to keep Israelis from taking more land.
The invasion of Israel wasn't protecting Gaza. It was a war crime which tipped off a war where more war crimes are happening on both sides. What, you think Hamas didn't think for a second attacking Israel, the country providing all of Gaza's utilities, would be a bad move? Or do you think they were just doing their duty?
Isreal is acting like the Nazi's.
Not sure how. Arabs are something like 20 percent minority in Israel. The number of Jews in Gaza is something like whatever percent was captured on the 7th and still alive. Hamas fighters brag about killing Jews on social media and on video footage captured during the assault on the 7th. They dragged a hostage's body around, half clothed, for civilians to mutilate and spit on. Israel has gone full hulk on the Gaza Strip, which is bad news for everyone living in it, but they haven't gone in to kill everyone.
I can't imagine if the power of each were reversed, Hamas going into Israel would be anything but actual genocide on the level of the Nazis. Maybe worse, considering there's more Jews in Israel now than Hitler got ahold of.
Now, Israel is saying they are going to keep a permanent base in Gaza to watch over the Palestinians from getting out of line.
What should they do instead? Door to door surveys? "Hello, are you feeling jihad-y today sir?"
Why are they terrorists? Because they want Israelis out of the west bank? Did every Gazian say they were Hamas supporters? How about the other northern Palestinians? Are they Hamas supporters too? Why is it only the people in Gaza? Why is the war being reverted in an area where two sides are disputing for land? Dont you think this war is to convenient for one side?
Look at this rhetoric. "Don't you think this war is to[sic] convenient for one side?"
Do I think some factions in Israel would like to just stamp out Gaza and assert absolute control? Sure. They, like most countries, have some extreme factions who have embraced the hate. The difference is that Israel didn't initiate this war; Hamas did in the most atrocious way possible and without consideration for the fallout (or care, if they did). Second, because of how severe things have become, anything short of occupation would be insufficient.
Occupation isn't this morally evil thing every time. The allies occupied Germany after WW2, as the US did Japan. In both cases, both countries had evil governments who committed atrocities and were 'watched' for decades before the culture changed enough to be integrated into the greater global community. Off parole, I should say.
The main difference here is that the Gaza strip being occupied won't be easily given the same treatment. The economy cannot flourish because currently it's a dependent economy. The country doesn't have much autonomy and it has a strong strong religious culture of intolerance which would have to be removed utterly to allow for a peaceful transition into something like a peaceful neighboring state, regardless of where borders lie.
This justification of violence over border disputes is archaic tribalism at its finest. This border this; that border that. It's all squabbling nonsense which justifies nothing. The greater issue here is why can't these two people cooperate peacefully, which would allow for a better compromise? It's really really simple - Hamas wants to kill Jews, and they have a lot of support in Gaza. Ironically, they may somehow get more support out of this war, even if they lose it utterly.
If the Gazans could rebuild, chuck Hamas and fundamentalist Islam, and become a self sufficient economy with the help of others, that would be ideal. But I don't think that will happen. Fundamentalism in the Middle East has simply grown, not shrunk. And all of the powers in the area are invested in both not helping Gaza (either by accepting refugees or helping them economically) and just pushing them into fighting Israel, because they also hate them.