Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Common sense dictates that noone can - after 8 years of zero practice - wear a fully armoured suit laden with a cape and weaponry, sneak through a sewer, take out random mooks, and then fight at full capacity.The writer chose to show us that Batman was weaker. Hence the written words in the script, 'Peace has cost you your strength'.
Common sense and writers intent show that tanking Batman's haymakers isn't as impressive as it was when Batman was in his prime.
Bottom line: Even if Batman is weaker than his superhuman prime self, that doesn't make him weaker than the average middleweight boxer.
Let's see - you ignored points 1, 2, and 3 below. Dismissing someone's argument while presenting your own isn't good debating; it's a form of trolling. Please address all three points. I've included the implied conclusions in case you missed them.
1. This is fiction - everything that exists is what the writer chooses to show us. There's no evidence that Batman was tired before facing Bane. Fictional characters can fight for a long period of time and turn around and fight again for a long period of time.2. Batman rested longer than a standard boxing round.Therefore his initial haymakers were fueled by his full power as would anyone's.
3. His haymakers were shown fully powered, with some even thrown while jumping.
I didn't ignore them, I addressed them all.
Batman was weak, as shown when Bane casually caught both fists and told him - and us - to Batman's face, that he was weak.
Saying he is an average middleweight boxer level without any proof, is just wasting my time, tbh. Got proof? Then show it. Otherwise, I don't need to address random sentences.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I didn't ignore them, I addressed them all.Batman was weak, as shown when Bane casually caught both fists and told him - and us - to Batman's face, that he was weak.
Saying he is an average middleweight boxer level without any proof, is just wasting my time, tbh. Got proof? Then show it. Otherwise, I don't need to address random sentences.
Weaker or weak? Weak compared to what - an average human male or his prime self? Batman at his peak is far superior to an average middleweight boxer. The average middleweight boxer represents the lower bound for this version of Batman, and it doesn't need to be proven that he meets or exceeds that level.
Additionally, he had no trouble effortlessly knocking out trained mercenaries before the Bane fight. The idea that "Batman is weaker than an average middleweight boxer" is an absurd and unfounded assumption.
Originally posted by h1a8
Go ahead, teach me a lesson since you know so much about it.And while you're at it, explain how anything Batroc did surpasses busting a stone column with fists or punching Batman in his bulletproof cowl and flash koing him.
There's nothing to argue - you're simply trolling. No one with an IQ above 75 thinks the 190lbs Bane is capable of stopping Falcon from taking off.
Breaking concrete is his one decent feat. He still got his ass whipped by a Batman that had literally no cartilage left in his knees, had been in one fight in the last 8 years, and had just recently suffered a broken back.
Originally posted by h1a8
Weaker or weak? Weak compared to what - an average human male or his prime self? Batman at his peak is far superior to an average middleweight boxer. The average middleweight boxer represents the lower bound for this version of Batman, and it doesn't need to be proven that he meets or exceeds that level.Additionally, he had no trouble effortlessly knocking out trained mercenaries before the Bane fight. The idea that "Batman is weaker than an average middleweight boxer" is an absurd and unfounded assumption.
He didn't take the mercs on in direct combat. He snuck around and used stealth. So inapplicable as a showing if his strength.
You are just throwing out random lower bounds, tbh, hence my ignoring of them. Prove that this version of Batman is average middleweight boxer level.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
He didn't take the mercs on in direct combat. He snuck around and used stealth. So inapplicable as a showing if his strength.You are just throwing out random lower bounds, tbh, hence my ignoring of them. Prove that this version of Batman is average middleweight boxer level.
Knocking out multiple trained mercenaries with relative ease strongly suggests Batman was at least as strong as the average middleweight boxer. The idea that he accomplished this while being physically weaker than one is highly unreasonable - bordering on asinine.
Furthermore, while stealth played a role, it doesn't diminish the fact that his strikes incapacitated armed and trained combatants, who were likely conditioned to withstand blows. Batman - who was still active enough to take on multiple opponents - would have to be in a comparable range to a middle weight boxer to achieve similar results. If he were significantly weaker than a trained boxer, his strikes wouldn't have had the stopping power to drop multiple mercenaries as quickly as he did.
Even in his deteriorated state, Batman wasn't some frail, incapable fighter. He still demonstrated agility by evading machine gun fire, precision in his attacks, and enough strength to neutralize enemies effortlessly - lifting one as if he weighed nothing. The argument that he was weaker than a middleweight boxer contradicts the very feats he performed leading up to the Bane fight.
Once again, as someone pointed out, you're arguing like a lawyer trying to win a case at any cost rather than a philosopher seeking to uncover the truth.
Originally posted by Psychotron
There's nothing to argue - you're simply trolling. No one with an IQ above 75 thinks the 190lbs Bane is capable of stopping Falcon from taking off.Breaking concrete is his one decent feat. He still got his ass whipped by a Batman that had literally no cartilage left in his knees, had been in one fight in the last 8 years, and had just recently suffered a broken back.
In the second fight against Bane, Batman relied on a plot device, yet his strikes were still largely ineffective at first.
In the first fight, when Batman was weaker, however, he demonstrated above-average human strength by effortlessly lifting a mercenary off the ground and swiftly knocking out multiple opponents. At the beginning of the movie, Batman punched through a motorcyclist’s helmet, shattering the plastic visor and knocking him out. Even in his weakened state, he was still incredibly strong.
Originally posted by h1a8
Knocking out multiple trained mercenaries with relative ease strongly suggests Batman was at least as strong as the average middleweight boxer. The idea that he accomplished this while being physically weaker than one is highly unreasonable - bordering on asinine.Furthermore, while stealth played a role, it doesn't diminish the fact that his strikes incapacitated armed and trained combatants, who were likely conditioned to withstand blows. Batman - who was still active enough to take on multiple opponents - would have to be in a comparable range to a middle weight boxer to achieve similar results. If he were significantly weaker than a trained boxer, his strikes wouldn't have had the stopping power to drop multiple mercenaries as quickly as he did.
Even in his deteriorated state, Batman wasn't some frail, incapable fighter. He still demonstrated agility by evading machine gun fire, precision in his attacks, and enough strength to neutralize enemies effortlessly - lifting one as if he weighed nothing. The argument that he was weaker than a middleweight boxer contradicts the very feats he performed leading up to the Bane fight.
Once again, as someone pointed out, you're arguing like a lawyer trying to win a case at any cost rather than a philosopher seeking to uncover the truth.
Which he could have achieved with any manner of gadgets or tricks. Whilst he was quite agile, it says nothing about his strength.
Parroting others' arguments? How low you have fallen, to do what you accuse others of doing. Tsk tsk.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85You totally ignored the 2 actual strength feats I gave, one being an actual superhuman punching feat.
Which he could have achieved with any manner of gadgets or tricks. Whilst he was quite agile, it says nothing about his strength.Parroting others' arguments? How low you have fallen, to do what you accuse others of doing. Tsk tsk.
Baleman uses his hands and feet to knock out individuals. That's his style. He was never shown using a gadget to knock someone out or even possessing one capable of doing so. You are simply making stuff up at this point.
Parroting whose argument?
I'm confused. H1 is championing Bane for tanking haymakers from a decade out of practice, cartilage-less, no spine having Batman. Yet Batroc doing damage(even if slight) and being tough enough to take an extended beating from Cap means nothing because according to h1 he was holding back because Batroc was a normal human. Even though we've seen him do stuff like this to normal humans all the time. If those men aren't dead, they are in critical condition and will never be the same.
Not sure why he'd hold back against a murderous pirate with hostages when he's done so much worse to random mook soldiers. In fact, Batroc held up against his initial assault and fought back well enough that Cap tackled him 20ft through a steel door then bounced his head off of the door while he was on the ground to KO him.
Originally posted by h1a8
You totally ignored the 2 actual strength feats I gave, one being an actual superhuman punching feat.Baleman uses his hands and feet to knock out individuals. That's his style. He was never shown using a gadget to knock someone out or even possessing one capable of doing so. You are simply making stuff up at this point.
Parroting whose argument?
Oof. Making stuff up? NEver shown to have such a gadget?
https://v.redd.it/y5xu77md9blb1
Here he is using bat-darts to send his opponents to sleep:
lDdX6meXcY4?t=66
Go to the 1:10 mark. And maybe come back to this thread when you have watched the movie? And you can post your apology here, too.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Oof. Making stuff up? NEver shown to have such a gadget?https://v.redd.it/y5xu77md9blb1
Here he is using bat-darts to send his opponents to sleep:
lDdX6meXcY4?t=66
Go to the 1:10 mark. And maybe come back to this thread when you have watched the movie? And you can post your apology here, too.
Having his mask electrocute anyone attempting to remove it is not only irrelevant to the mercenary scene in question, but there is also no proof that it knocked the guy out.
I don't consider throwing darts to be gadgets; I define a gadget as a mechanical or electrical device. Regardless, he clearly didn't throw darts in that mercenary scene.
Batman only has the gadgets or items we've seen him use.
Attempting to correct a statement without actually addressing the heart of an argument is just nitpicking.
That said, you ignored the fact that I provided two superhuman strength feats for Batman in the film before his fight with Bane. So the mercenary debate is irrelevant.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Sounds like you are just nitpicking.
I can easily argue that Batman relied solely on his physical strength and skill in that scene without using any gadgets or tricks to directly ko them, but I've already proven that the mercenary argument is moot given the other evidence. Your lack of response means you concede the point, yet you'd rather argue an irrelevant detail just to save face.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
The only one you have, is him lifting the mercenary. Him removing the other mercenaries cannot be proved either way to be with strength or with sedatives, so is moot.So now, now him lifting the mercenary. I go through things point by point so they're not missed.
Yes, the swiftness and ease with which he lifted the mercenary (both in full gear).
What about the other feat I mentioned?
Would you at least agree that Batman was at least as strong as the average middleweight boxer? It's not a big deal.
Originally posted by h1a8
Yes, the swiftness and ease with which he lifted the mercenary (both in full gear).What about the other feat I mentioned?
Would you at least agree that Batman was at least as strong as the average middleweight boxer? It's not a big deal.
He has gear/gadgets that help with his grip strength. He has not shown any gadgets showing his punching strength to be increased.
Next?