Originally posted by h1a8
The fight is decided by KO, death, BFR, or incapacitation.Jean with the Phoenix Force can be knocked out or killed with sufficient force. Her ability to resurrect is irrelevant, as it still counts as a loss under forum rules.
Oh for sure.
If this is Jean Grey Phoenix as opposed to the Phoenix Force (the premise i was debating under) then that'd make this less straightforward
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Lets be objective and also acknowledge the less than omnipotent/omniscient showings of the Presence/SourceWards of priests able to hide sins from the Presence’s detection:
https://imgur.com/0BaOn9k
https://imgur.com/E1BALAv
https://imgur.com/xod6Eua
https://imgur.com/uybNoxsThe Source is not infallible and makes mistakes (lack of omniscience):
https://imgur.com/IuwS2ut
https://imgur.com/NI2Lty0The Source able to be surprise attacked (lack of omniscience) harmed and diminished by 3 skyfathers(lack of omnipotence):
https://imgur.com/xGEOifW
https://imgur.com/JlARdRO
https://imgur.com/cJpKIEn
And man, the Presence is all over the place. Check out the 2016 Lucifer series.....yikes.
Originally posted by zopzop
WB GS! 🙂And man, the Presence is all over the place. Check out the 2016 Lucifer series.....yikes.
Hey Zop. Great to hear from you 🙂
Yh you know i like to pop up every now and again.
I'll have to re read the 2016 series. I remember being so excited for Lucifers return but finding it nowhere near as good as the 2000 series 🙁
But if it's got more showings of Presence that can present a balanced picture of things then I'll have a look again
Originally posted by GalacticStormWhile I did appreciate the overarching cosmic murder-mystery plot, I have said that Lee Garbett's artwork in Lucifer vol.2 clashed horribly with Holly Black's writing and noir themes.
I'll have to re read the 2016 series. I remember being so excited for Lucifers return but finding it nowhere near as good as the 2000 series 🙁
And the events within Lucifer vol. 2 utterly refute/dismantle certain closely-held KMC myths about Lucifer/Michael/Presence so it was widely disregarded. Some KMC mythologizers protested that vol. 2 isn't even canon. That notion has its own self-defeating problems but, whatever. It does not negate that Lucifer vol. 2 directly continues the story of Lucifer/Michael/Presence... Elaine Belloc, Mazikeen, etc.
But, yes, Lucifer vol. 2 is actually sort of missable.
Lucifer vol.3 by Dan Watters, Max/Sebastian Fiumara & other artists, tho? That's the sh1t. Go ahead and skip to vol.3.
Originally posted by ODG
While I did appreciate the overarching cosmic murder-mystery plot, I have said that Lee Garbett's artwork in Lucifer vol.2 clashed horribly with Holly Black's writing and noir themes.And the events within Lucifer vol. 2 utterly refute/dismantle certain closely-held KMC myths about Lucifer/Michael/Presence so it was widely disregarded. Some KMC mythologizers protested that vol. 2 isn't even canon. That notion has its own self-defeating problems but, whatever. It does not negate that Lucifer vol. 2 directly continues the story of Lucifer/Michael/Presence... Elaine Belloc, Mazikeen, etc.
But, yes, Lucifer vol. 2 is actually sort of missable.
Lucifer vol.3 by Dan Watters, Max/Sebastian Fiumara & other artists, tho? That's the sh1t. Go ahead and skip to vol.3.
I didn't even know there was a 3rd volume! Thanks for the heads up.
I was an avid DC reader throughout the 2000s and then I fell off late 2010s with all the Metal and Death Metal business and continuity refreshes.
Looking forward to reading through this 🙂
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Lets be objective and also acknowledge the less than omnipotent/omniscient showings of the Presence/SourceWards of priests able to hide sins from the Presence’s detection:
https://imgur.com/0BaOn9k
https://imgur.com/E1BALAv
https://imgur.com/xod6Eua
https://imgur.com/uybNoxsThe Source is not infallible and makes mistakes (lack of omniscience):
https://imgur.com/IuwS2ut
https://imgur.com/NI2Lty0The Source able to be surprise attacked (lack of omniscience) harmed and diminished by 3 skyfathers(lack of omnipotence):
https://imgur.com/xGEOifW
https://imgur.com/JlARdRO
https://imgur.com/cJpKIEn
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Much of his might vested in his creation (unlike the Phoenix whose WHR form remains an infinite wellspring of creativity despite sustaining creation) to the point where its unable to bypass Monitor erected dimensional walls:
https://imgur.com/rxuKEgP
https://imgur.com/WdoaVDZAble to be surprised, overpowered and restrained by Darkseid using his power(lack of omniscience and omnipotence):
https://imgur.com/kfKnnAp
https://imgur.com/h0himI6
https://imgur.com/i1PZSu1
https://imgur.com/DCOSVOe
https://imgur.com/Wl7CuvD
https://imgur.com/3OzGDHI
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The Overvoid being completely oblivious to the existence of a long developed creation (views into creation and we see images of superheroes) despite apparently being one and the same as the Source (the power said to intentionally have brought about creation through its "Hands" - lack of omniscience)
https://imgur.com/2IzD9vV
https://imgur.com/pEDSiRyThe Overvoid not understanding the concept of stories (lack of omniscience) and mental overload resulting in its probe splitting in two (lack of omnipotence)
https://imgur.com/eUtge8KThe Source, Presence and Overvoid being the same entity isn’t a plus, that prevents the low showings from being written off as characteristic of a lower aspect. These showings across all 3 aspects is conclusive evidence of fallibility and a lack of true omnipotence and omniscience. So lets accept that neither DCs Supreme Being or Marvels are truly supreme as per a dictionary definition of the the reference, but for ease of drawing comparisons within debate, they are both relatively supreme in their respective continuities and are to be treated as equivalents.
Got a comic title and issue number for this so i can see whats actually explicitly depicted?
Originally posted by abhilegend
Death of New Gods is apocryphal. You'd know if you had any knowledge about DC comics.
You don't get to dismiss a canon source because it's inconvenient to the narrative you wish to paint.
Online fan opinion is insufficient. When there's a retcon in print please share with us all 🙂
Originally posted by abhilegend
This is random gibberish. WHR isn't TOAA's font of creation, that's House of Ideas which is a separate realm from WHR. Peddle this nonsense somewhere else.
No. Its explicit canon that you are oblivious to.
The White Hot Room and House of Ideas have been placed in a Kaballah inspired tree of life Circuit by Ewing:
As he states in said interview, Defenders Beyond charts the heroes journey up the middle pillar of the tree of life:
From the Neutral Zone bubble that Eternity sits in at Malkuth
To the Beyond realm at Yesod:
To the White Hot Room at Tiphereth
To the House of Ideas at Keter
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The Overvoid being completely oblivious to the existence of a long developed creation (views into creation and we see images of superheroes) despite apparently being one and the same as the Source (the power said to intentionally have brought about creation through its "Hands" - lack of omniscience)
https://imgur.com/2IzD9vV
https://imgur.com/pEDSiRyThe Overvoid not understanding the concept of stories (lack of omniscience) and mental overload resulting in its probe splitting in two (lack of omnipotence)
https://imgur.com/eUtge8KThe Source, Presence and Overvoid being the same entity isn’t a plus, that prevents the low showings from being written off as characteristic of a lower aspect. These showings across all 3 aspects is conclusive evidence of fallibility and a lack of true omnipotence and omniscience. So lets accept that neither DCs Supreme Being or Marvels are truly supreme as per a dictionary definition of the the reference, but for ease of drawing comparisons within debate, they are both relatively supreme in their respective continuities and are to be treated as equivalents.
Got a comic title and issue number for this so i can see whats actually explicitly depicted?
like many have said, the evidence you are looking for in the jenny sparks mini series. looks like we will have to spoon feed you everything. you know nothing about one side of the opponent in this thread which makes your opinion clearly biased.
your presence/overvoid/source intepretation is hilariously wrong, there are so many errors i dont even know where to begin
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
T
House of Ideas is where stories are generated as revealed in 2019s No Road Home:
However it is a place of immaterial meaning and portent as expanded on by the same writer Ewing in 2021s Defenders Beyond:
With Defenders Beyond referencing Avengers Road Home and Fantastic Four to show it considered those previous appearances in its latest take:
As the ideas descend down the tree the White Hot Room is the place of creativity where theyre transmuted to physical reality:
We saw this when Mother Righteous wrote her story on its blank pages and it transmuted immaterial idea into flesh turning her into a Dominion:
It was able to do this as the White Hot Room, the true form of the Phoenix is Marvels starting point of creativity. It makes all that is made and determines what can be made:
As the starting point of creativity it takes TOAAs ideas and transmutes them to physical reality. Yet despite creating and sustaining creation, the Abstracts, 1st Firmament etc it remains a wellspring of creativity. The creation tool of TOAA.
The true form of the Phoenix:
Where despite a portion of its essence being the very substance of creation, its core power is held in the WHR:
Originally posted by MrMind
like many have said, the evidence you are looking for in the jenny sparks mini series. looks like we will have to spoon feed you everything. you know nothing about one side of the opponent in this thread which makes your opinion clearly biased.
your presence/overvoid/source intepretation is hilariously wrong, there are so many errors i dont even know where to begin
There is no interpretation when it comes to the Presence/Source. Im just sharing whats explicitly stated. The comics showed explicitly:
-the Presence was unable to see past the wards of priests
-Was defeated by 3 skyfathers
-Was left in a diminished state and unable to break through Monitor barriers
-Was able to be surprised, overpowered and restrained by Darkseid using his power against him
-The Overvoid was oblivious to a developing creation within himself
-That the concept of stories was beyond his knowledge and the mental overload split his probe
None of the above is interpretation. Its what was explicitly conveyed.
The bias is in your eagerness to acknowledge the low showings of TOAA but unwillingness to accept the clear limitations displayed by DCs supreme being.
I read Jenny Sparks this morning after Darksaint kindly informed me of the relevant title.
Great feat. If he was facing Jean Phoenix in her current form where its established she has self imposed limits then he its a battle for sure.
Against the Phoenix Force he would get smited.
😂 so you think phoenix force can smite someone who create and destroy the infinite multiverse on a whim
care to back it up with actual feats?
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
-the Presence was unable to see past the wards of priests
-Was defeated by 3 skyfathers
-Was left in a diminished state and unable to break through Monitor barriers
-Was able to be surprised, overpowered and restrained by Darkseid using his power against him
-That the concept of stories was beyond Overvoid knowledge and the mental overload split his probe
none of these happened, stop lying. you're an embarrassment. I've seen alberto spew more credible bullshit. you might as well write your own fan fiction at this point.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
You don't get to dismiss a canon source because it's inconvenient to the narrative you wish to paint.Online fan opinion is insufficient. When there's a retcon in print please share with us all 🙂
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
No. Its explicit canon that you are oblivious to.The White Hot Room and House of Ideas have been placed in a Kaballah inspired tree of life Circuit by Ewing:
As he states in said interview, Defenders Beyond charts the heroes journey up the middle pillar of the tree of life:
From the Neutral Zone bubble that Eternity sits in at Malkuth
To the Beyond realm at Yesod:
To the White Hot Room at Tiphereth
To the House of Ideas at Keter
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
House of Ideas is where stories are generated as revealed in 2019s No Road Home:However it is a place of immaterial meaning and portent as expanded on by the same writer Ewing in 2021s Defenders Beyond:
With Defenders Beyond referencing Avengers Road Home and Fantastic Four to show it considered those previous appearances in its latest take:
As the ideas descend down the tree the White Hot Room is the place of creativity where theyre transmuted to physical reality:
We saw this when Mother Righteous wrote her story on its blank pages and it transmuted immaterial idea into flesh turning her into a Dominion:
Good to know WHR can make ideas in reality at star level.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
It was able to do this as the White Hot Room, the true form of the Phoenix is Marvels starting point of creativity. It makes all that is made and determines what can be made:As the starting point of creativity it takes TOAAs ideas and transmutes them to physical reality. Yet despite creating and sustaining creation, the Abstracts, 1st Firmament etc it remains a wellspring of creativity. The creation tool of TOAA.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
There is no interpretation when it comes to the Presence/Source. Im just sharing whats explicitly stated. The comics showed explicitly:-the Presence was unable to see past the wards of priests
-Was defeated by 3 skyfathers
-Was left in a diminished state and unable to break through Monitor barriers
-Was able to be surprised, overpowered and restrained by Darkseid using his power against him
-The Overvoid was oblivious to a developing creation within himself
-That the concept of stories was beyond his knowledge and the mental overload split his probeNone of the above is interpretation. Its what was explicitly conveyed.
The bias is in your eagerness to acknowledge the low showings of TOAA but unwillingness to accept the clear limitations displayed by DCs supreme being.
I read Jenny Sparks this morning after Darksaint kindly informed me of the relevant title.
Great feat. If he was facing Jean Phoenix in her current form where its established she has self imposed limits then he its a battle for sure.
Against the Phoenix Force he would get smited.