Black Canary Vs Black Widow

Canary didn't outskill Shiva, though? It was her damage soak that carried her through, especially in the earlier rounds when Shiva was dominating her. Shiva literally had her on the floor, humiliated, and was gloating in the background and wanted her to say the words 'I surrender':

Also, to note, Canary was actually down for more than a 10 count:

Under any other rules, hell, even under forum rules, Canary lost that fight. We shouldn't act as if its so out there that Widow - who has more damage soak feats than Canary - wouldn't do the same.

Originally posted by Senor Cage
I don't put Bullseye in Batman's/Shiva's level. And BC isn't that far off, IMO

Widow's fights against Elektra and Taskmaster show her skills and stats. Plus her speed feats are simply better than BC's, and she has the weapons and accuracy advantages.

Also the comparison doesn't make sense anyways. Give Bullseye a gun and 500 meters and Shiva would die.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Canary didn't outskill Shiva, though? It was her damage soak that carried her through, especially in the earlier rounds when Shiva was dominating her. Shiva literally had her on the floor, humiliated, and was gloating in the background and wanted her to say the words 'I surrender':

Also, to note, Canary was actually down for more than a 10 count:

Under any other rules, hell, even under forum rules, Canary lost that fight. We shouldn't act as if its so out there that Widow - who has more damage soak feats than Canary - wouldn't do the same.

She lasted better than Batman, currently. Batman couldn't even get a hit off.

Originally posted by Smurph
Bullseye has a number of excellent skill feats. But you're trying to use him to lowball Widow, which isn't how the forum works. You can't inflate BC by proximity to Shiva while trying to lowball BC by way of Bullseye.

Widow's fights against Elektra and Taskmaster show her skills and stats. Plus her speed feats are simply better than BC's, and she has the weapons and accuracy advantages.

Also the comparison doesn't make sense anyways. Give Bullseye a gun and 500 meters and Shiva would die.

Bullseye is solid, but not the most skilled. Characters like Shiva, Batman, and now Canary are just a tad bit above him. I'd rank Cassandra above him too.

Widow stalemated Elektra while gravely injured. Swap Shiva in for BC and Widow still wins.

Originally posted by Senor Cage
Bullseye is solid, but not the most skilled. Characters like Shiva, Batman, and now Canary are just a tad bit above him. I'd rank Cassandra above him too.

Originally posted by Senor Cage
She lasted better than Batman, currently. Batman couldn't even get a hit off.

Yet Batman literally one shot Canary, so..... comparisons are flawed.

Here Widow has her long-range weapons, whilst Canary's is significantly weakened.

Canary just had a good reaction showing against Inque/Barda attack. I don't see widow simply shooting her before she can dodge. Does Widow have any feats or shooting someone as skilled before they can dodge?

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Not a real comparison though. Like Smurph pointed out, the marksmanship also makes it quite different from your Shiva example

Canary cry has stopped projectiles In the past, so I doubt that will work.

Originally posted by Senor Cage
Canary cry has stopped projectiles In the past, so I doubt that will work.

I'm saying if it gets to hth. I don't put widow or even Bullseye in the same ballpark as Shiva or canary.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Yet Batman literally one shot Canary, so..... comparisons are flawed.

Here Widow has her long-range weapons, whilst Canary's is significantly weakened.

King: I mean, the book is called The Best of the Best, and Lady Shiva is the best hand-to-hand fighter in the DC universe. Male, female, what have you, she’s number one. And Black Canary is number two. This is a fight that if Batman got in the ring, he’d get his ass kicked by both of these women. And I say that as a guy who’s written hundreds of issues with Batman [laughs] and loves the character, but that’s what this fight is about. It’s about who is the best fighter in the DC universe. And it just happens to be that the number one champion and number one contender are both women.

Don't fight Tom King's hierarchy, Saint 😖hifty:

Originally posted by Senor Cage
Canary just had a good reaction showing against Inque/Barda attack. I don't see widow simply shooting her before she can dodge. Does Widow have any feats or shooting someone as skilled before they can dodge?

Yet another 'feat' that you mention, while omitting tons of context. Barda was clearly being controlled by Inque, we usually discount those as we have no idea how fast they are moving at. What IS interesting, is how powerful her 'big' sonic attack is:

A window gets blown out. And she's at MUCH closer range than 500m. This is what the wall looked like BEFORE the 'big sonic':

As for skilled opponents before they can dodge:
Captain America:
https://imgur.com/a/bw-diamondback-vs-cap-Gkq54

Spiderman (explicitly when he has his Spidey Sense):
https://imgur.com/a/bw-puts-down-spidey-with-one-punch-after-testing-spider-sense-Aa5EW

Elektra (who has better bullet timing feats than Canary, explicitly using her sais to bat a bullet away):
https://imgur.com/a/elektra-vs-black-widow-ILfPJ

Widow had just undergone major surgery btw

Against Bucky, withh an upgraded arm, at much closer range:
https://imgur.com/a/vs-bucky-with-fancy-arm-6HBNA6q

Against Bucky, who screams for Hawkeye to help him and says she will kill him if Hawkeye doesn't help:
https://imgur.com/a/black-widow-beats-on-bucky-hawkeye-l2DpSxT

Against Crossbones, who dodges her Widow's Bite:
https://imgur.com/a/bw-vs-crossbones-B6mxb

So yeah, plenty of times. And at much closer range, whereas this thread has them at 500m. Still zero scans of her Canary cry being any use at long distances.

Originally posted by Senor Cage
Don't fight Tom King's hierarchy, Saint 😖hifty:

As always, writer interviews don't count 👆

Originally posted by Senor Cage
I'm saying if it gets to hth. I don't put widow or even Bullseye in the same ballpark as Shiva or canary.

It won't get to h2h. Widow is able to snipe things without even seeing them, as crazy as that sounds. She doesn't even need to see Canary to shoot her.

I did say Barda/Inque feat. Meaning Inque was in control, Symbiote style. Still a good feat.

Most of those people were able to dodge and block her. Not really impressed.

I know Interviews don't count, but Canary had a big push, fighting Shiva for several rounds and not getting killed. Batman couldn't even last one round with her, without having gear.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Canary didn't outskill Shiva, though? It was her damage soak that carried her through, especially in the earlier rounds when Shiva was dominating her. Shiva literally had her on the floor, humiliated, and was gloating in the background and wanted her to say the words 'I surrender':

And if you want to seize upon which one of them was closest to losing this stipulated fight, it was actually Lady Shiva in issue #4 at the end of Round 4:

https://hosting.photobucket.com/c2ff727d-f6c8-4ae8-b3f1-2b73f185b92b/9441dbe4-fda2-44df-95c9-14a9019d6cbc.jpg
https://hosting.photobucket.com/c2ff727d-f6c8-4ae8-b3f1-2b73f185b92b/04b0d244-1a84-4769-afdc-2614dc3145f2.jpg
https://hosting.photobucket.com/c2ff727d-f6c8-4ae8-b3f1-2b73f185b92b/5d219d9c-1b39-4385-8dca-4a7d38e1ada4.jpg
https://hosting.photobucket.com/c2ff727d-f6c8-4ae8-b3f1-2b73f185b92b/f0c723ff-4e4e-4d21-a510-a596f204786b.jpg
https://hosting.photobucket.com/c2ff727d-f6c8-4ae8-b3f1-2b73f185b92b/e7cd0480-ff7a-428c-83e4-49b02073ab84.jpg

Black Canary crying on the floor with her wig torn off was not crying because of what Lady Shiva was doing. It was her internal struggle with her mother's legacy. It's not even subtext. It's blatantly half the comic that's interwoven between all the fight scenes.

I'd argue Black Canary won the fight twiceover. By stopping Lady Shiva from surrendering at the end of Round 4. Then knocking Lady Shiva unconscious in Round 6 before Dinah unilaterally declared her own surrender to consummate the matchfixing.

Originally posted by Senor Cage
I did say Barda/Inque feat. Meaning Inque was in control, Symbiote style. Still a good feat.

Most of those people were able to dodge and block her. Not really impressed.

I know Interviews don't count, but Canary had a big push, fighting Shiva for several rounds and not getting killed. Batman couldn't even last one round with her, without having gear.

But here, Widow HAS gear. Those people are fast enough to block projectiles, but not fast enough to block Widow. And again, her fighting Shiva for several rounds isn't really as impressive when we see Shiva literally letting her live just so she can say the words 'I surrender'.

Bucky compared to BW in skill:

I have think that it would be a good fight at first glance. Canary would likely knock a bit of stuffing out of Natasha, but she nearly has Punisher Mevel damage soak. I think in H2H only, that it could go either way, but when you add the he gadgets Natasha gains an unfair advantage.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
But here, Widow HAS gear. Those people are fast enough to block projectiles, but not fast enough to block Widow. And again, her fighting Shiva for several rounds isn't really as impressive when we see Shiva literally letting her live just so she can say the words 'I surrender'.

I haven't read this thread closely but was there an intimation that Dinah could not unleash a canary cry without taking a huge breathful of air? TBH, makes sense given what limited appearance I've read.

But that begs the question: has she ever let loose smaller canary cries that don't require such deep breaths? If not...

... are Dinah's bullet aim-dodging feats so limited that she couldn't dodge Black Widow's pistols/armwrist stings without having any chance to take that deep breath?

Which, mind you, I'm not saying Black Widow isn't agile enough to dodge (especially if she's keeping Dinah off-balance/off-target with her own barrage of bullets). But it just seems the so-called long-distance advantage isn't as clear-cut as it's been posited...

... which would narrow this further into close-quarters H2H. Which is the more interesting conversation for me.