Palpatine coming back is the opposite of a plot hole. It's so extremely in character that they did it with him in the 90's too.
Rey beating Palpatine instead of Anakin also isn't a plot hole, since Anakin being The Chosen One is in-universe speculation. Even Yoda wonders if the prophecy was misread. Also, Anakin DID defeat the Sith and bring balance to the Force. It just wasn't permanent.
Originally posted by Underachiever59Palpatine's return was only a plot-hole in the sense that there was absolutely no build-up to it in the first two ST films, then...*poof*... He's been alive in some rotten clone body on some random Sith world the entire time, has been puppeteering everything since RotJ from behind the scenes, and has also secretly constructed the most powerful fleet in history(to the point where the entire First Order was just a red herring, lol.) Oh and you know that brand new Dyad power we just introduced for Rey and Kylo? Well Palpatine can also absorb that with no explanation at all, and fully restore his body/power on the fly. Ugh, such asspulls... I know the comics and shows have tried to reconcile some of that since, but it's still just painfully stupid on its own. /shrug
Palpatine coming back is the opposite of a plot hole. It's so extremely in character that they did it with him in the 90's too.
But yeah, Palpatine's essence-transfer gimmick wasn't surprising at all. They obvs ripped that one straight from DE, like you said. 👆
Originally posted by Underachiever59This is where the verbiage gets weird for me. Because Anakin did "defeat" the Sith(at least temporarily), but he didn't "destroy" the Sith(as the prophecy foretold, iirc), because Palpatine technically never died.
Also, Anakin DID defeat the Sith and bring balance to the Force. It just wasn't permanent.
That said, "destroy" is subjective(as is the entire prophecy.) For example, it could also be referring to "destroying" the Sith's rule/hold over the galaxy -- which Anakin effectively did when he 'killed' Palpatine in RotJ, as the Empire still crumbled shortly afterward without his direct involvement. I dunno... ermm
Yeah I know Palpatine came back in the EU and I criticised that too. Imo Palpatine coming back just a few DECADES after his defeat kinda weakens what happened in the original trilogy and all its related content is less meaningful. What’s the point of Luke and Vader joining forces, making Anakin come back to the light just to be back to Point 0 30 years later?
HOWEVER, I think there a few things that make Palpatine’s return in the EU more bearable and somehow still justifiable:
-In the EU it was Luke, Anakin’s son, who defeated Palpatine the second time. In a sense, you could say Anakin still had an impact of the galactic events in DE.
-Secondly, it’s true Palpy came back, but his empire wasn’t. Or rather, it didn’t conquer the whole galaxy again. We could say Luke killed Palpy just before he could become a real menace again.
In canon, on the other hand, Palpatine’s real defeat happened at the end of someone who is not a Skywalker and when he had just recreated his former empire.
Originally posted by Galan007
Palpatine's return was only a plot-hole in the sense that there was absolutely no build-up to it in the first two ST films, then...*poof*... He's been alive in some rotten clone body on some random Sith world the entire time, has been puppeteering everything since RotJ from behind the scenes, and has also secretly constructed the most powerful fleet in history(to the point where the entire First Order was just a red herring, lol.) Oh and you know that brand new Dyad power we just introduced for Rey and Kylo? Well Palpatine can also absorb that with no explanation at all, and fully restore his body/power on the fly. Ugh, such asspulls... I know the comics and shows have tried to reconcile some of that since, but it's still just painfully stupid on its own. /shrugBut yeah, Palpatine's essence-transfer gimmick wasn't surprising at all. They obvs ripped that one straight from DE, like you said. 👆
This is where the verbiage gets weird for me. Because Anakin did "defeat" the Sith(at least temporarily), but he didn't "destroy" the Sith(as the prophecy foretold, iirc), because Palpatine technically never died.
That said, "destroy" is subjective(as is the entire prophecy.) For example, it could also be referring to "destroying" the Sith's rule/hold over the galaxy -- which Anakin effectively did when he 'killed' Palpatine in RotJ, as the Empire still crumbled shortly afterward without his direct involvement. I dunno... ermm
Oh, I don't disagree that the story in TRoS is full of contrivances and ass pulls. But that's not the same as a plot hole. I just wish people would use the correct terms when they complain about things. Plot holes are genuine inconsistencies. They're not even always a bad thing. Beloved movies like Ocean's Eleven, Jurassic Park, Back to the Future, Citizen Kane, and so many others have very famous plot holes. Doesn't stop people from enjoying them. Palpatine coming back wasn't a plot home, it just wasn't properly foreshadowed and lazy writing.
Originally posted by Total WarriorFully agree that an actual Skywalker(so Ben/Kylo in this case) should have been the one who perma-killed Palpatine... But I also wish that was the worst complaint I had about the film, lol. 😘
Yeah I know Palpatine came back in the EU and I criticised that too. Imo Palpatine coming back just a few DECADES after his defeat kinda weakens what happened in the original trilogy and all its related content is less meaningful. What’s the point of Luke and Vader joining forces, making Anakin come back to the light just to be back to Point 0 30 years later?
HOWEVER, I think there a few things that make Palpatine’s return in the EU more bearable and somehow still justifiable:
-In the EU it was Luke, Anakin’s son, who defeated Palpatine the second time. In a sense, you could say Anakin still had an impact of the galactic events in DE.
-Secondly, it’s true Palpy came back, but his empire wasn’t. Or rather, it didn’t conquer the whole galaxy again. We could say Luke killed Palpy just before he could become a real menace again.In canon, on the other hand, Palpatine’s real defeat happened at the end of someone who is not a Skywalker and when he had just recreated his former empire.
Originally posted by Underachiever59Ah, okay. Agreed. 👆
Oh, I don't disagree that the story in TRoS is full of contrivances and ass pulls. But that's not the same as a plot hole. I just wish people would use the correct terms when they complain about things. Plot holes are genuine inconsistencies. They're not even always a bad thing. Beloved movies like Ocean's Eleven, Jurassic Park, Back to the Future, Citizen Kane, and so many others have very famous plot holes. Doesn't stop people from enjoying them. Palpatine coming back wasn't a plot home, it just wasn't properly foreshadowed and lazy writing.
Originally posted by Total Warrior
Yeah I know Palpatine came back in the EU and I criticised that too. Imo Palpatine coming back just a few DECADES after his defeat kinda weakens what happened in the original trilogy and all its related content is less meaningful. What’s the point of Luke and Vader joining forces, making Anakin come back to the light just to be back to Point 0 30 years later?
HOWEVER, I think there a few things that make Palpatine’s return in the EU more bearable and somehow still justifiable:
-In the EU it was Luke, Anakin’s son, who defeated Palpatine the second time. In a sense, you could say Anakin still had an impact of the galactic events in DE.
-Secondly, it’s true Palpy came back, but his empire wasn’t. Or rather, it didn’t conquer the whole galaxy again. We could say Luke killed Palpy just before he could become a real menace again.In canon, on the other hand, Palpatine’s real defeat happened at the end of someone who is not a Skywalker and when he had just recreated his former empire.
Agreed the entire Trilogy just made the OT moot, starting from TFA wiping out the new Republic on one go.
Dark Empire didn't do that, nor did it make Luke's attempts to revive the Jedi Order completely moot. They repeated the OT to leave off in the same place where ROTJ did except replace Luke with Rey. So any future Jedi Academy series will be Rey's academy, not Luke's. Let's not forget DE showed us from the outset what an absolute bad ass Luke has become. Whereas TLJ just destroyed the character.
Back to Sidious coming back, DE was at least properly planned and formulated that way, the ST clearly wasn't, with no hint of it until TRoS.
And DE clearly explained the return of the Emperor. Even had Luke going around destroying his clone bodies to stop him from resurrecting himself again. You guys might have forgotten being all clued up on the whole canon, but TRoS gave literally zero explanation for how he has returned. So zero justification for why he really is dead this time. An absolute abomination of a story and film and to canon itself.
I hate being put in the position of defending the Sequels. I don't like these movies. But it's straight up disingenuous to claim there was zero explanation in The Rise of Skywalker for how Palpatine came back. Just because Palpatine didn't look straight at the camera and say "I am a clone," that does not mean his return is unexplained.
One of Palpatine's first spoken lines is a direct quote from Revenge of the Sith's Tragedy of Darth Plagueis the Wise scene, implying he used secrets of the dark side to overcome death. When Kylo Ren arrives on Exegol, he sees several cloning tubes. Right after Poe's "Somehow Palpatine returned line," we have a Resistance character speculating on the methods, "Cloning, dark science, secrets only the Sith knew." Just because the movie doesn't hold our hand and spell it out for us like we're infants doesn't mean there isn't more than enough justification presented within the film itself for Palpatine's resurrection.
As for why he's "really dead this time," he might not be. But considering he starts the film in a decaying half-dead clone, it's pretty damn clear his cloning project on Exegol wasn't working out that well, and he probably didn't have better alternatives he could have been using. And his whole goal of the movie was to pass his spirit into Rey, which failed when she turned his lightning back on him. I'd say it's pretty damn likely Palpatine isn't coming back with what was presented in the film.
Also, hilarious that you claim DE was more properly planned and formulated. Because unlike TRoS, DE had zero foreshadowing in the franchise before DE came out that might hint at Palpatine's return. At least in Canon, we had the Tragedy of Darth Plagueis scene, and several hints in the Aftermath trilogy that Palpatine had been planning something beyond the Outer Rim. Before the first issue of DE came out, there was absolutely nothing in the Legends days to hint that he might return. All of your "planning and formulation" came after the Emperor was already resurrected, in follow-up issues and sequel comics. If you're giving DE that grace, it's only fair to extend the same grace to TRoS's supplemental material like The Bad Batch and Shadow of the Sith.
Basically, it was bad when DE did it, and bad when TRoS did it, but I genuinely don't think TRoS was as much of a travesty as DE. Now, I do share a lot of your complaints about the overall Sequel trilogy. TFA basically ended with the Galaxy in the exact same position as ANH's ending. And TRoS ended with the Galaxy in the same state as TRoS. JJ Abrams is a hack writer who never should have gotten to touch Star Wars. He took George's "It's like poetry, they rhyme" as an excuse to basically redo the OT almost one-for-one. The lack of planning and a lack of a cohesive vision for the ST were huge mistakes.
As for Luke, you might almost have a point, if being badass is the only metric by which you measure a character. But frankly, DE (and a lot of pre-2000's Legends stories) did some serious character assassination of Luke. He ****ing fell to the dark side immediately upon meeting Palpatine, and actually tried to kill Leia when she tried to snap him out of it. That's not even getting into the mess of horrible writing and ridiculous plot contrivances that is the Jedi Academy trilogy. Or ****ing hell, Children of the Jedi. The Last Jedi Luke is genuinely tame in comparison to what the worst stories in Legends did with Luke.
With ALL of that said!
What the **** does any of this have to do with dueling feats in canon? Why do Sequel haters always feel the need to derail any conversation by bashing on these movies? TFA came out a decade ago. Rey hasn't appeared in anything other than LEGO specials in the past six years of storytelling. Let's move on, folks.
Back to the actual topic at hand:
Bell Zettifar had a training session under Loden Greatstorm where his master pitted him against dozens (maybe a hundred, I'll have to double-check) of training remotes, intending to see how Bell handles failure. Instead, Bell "Leroy Jenkins"ed himself into the swarm of remotes and managed to destroy them all without getting tagged once.
Originally posted by Underachiever59It was "more than a hundred."
Back to the actual topic at hand:
Bell Zettifar had a training session under Loden Greatstorm where his master pitted him against dozens (maybe a hundred, I'll have to double-check) of training remotes, intending to see how Bell handles failure. Instead, Bell "Leroy Jenkins"ed himself into the swarm of remotes and managed to destroy them all without getting tagged once.
And Bell was just a 15 year old Padawan(who was also blindfolded at the time)... And still destroyed every single drone before they could even fire. 👆
While not just a single feat, I was just thinking on General Grievous, and his genuinely impressive track record. He's dueled against no less than half the Jedi council, and defeated most of the ones he faced.
He beat Ki-Adi Mundi, as referenced in Brotherhood (in one of the book's many nods to the 2003 microseries).
He beat Depa Billaba early in the war, and again in a rematch after she took Caleb as her padawan.
He beat Eeth Koth, Adi Gallia, and Obi-Wan Kenobi on at least a couple occasions during TCW.
Star Wars Lightsabers: A Guide to Weapons of the Force confirms that Grievous canonically defeated Shaak Ti during the invasion of Coruscant in the same way he did in the microseries.
He held his own against Kit Fisto and Yoda, though wasn't able to beat either.
That's 8 members of the Jedi Council that he's faced, and 6 he defeated. I can't think of any other character who can claim to have beaten fully half of the entire sitting Jedi Council over the course of their career.
Speaking of dueling feats for Luke, he actually has some good ones in Shadow of the Sith. He holds his own against nine Sith wraiths at once, and would have been winning if his lightsaber didn't just pass through them. He also beat an ancient Sith Lord known as Viceroy Exim Panshard, whose mask was possessing a Sith cultist named Kiza.
Originally posted by Total WarriorBut Luke already proved his skill against Vader during RotJ:
Yeah too bad he didn't prove it yet. He needs more feats where he wrecks everyone
We also know that RotJ was canonically Vader's overall peak, yet Luke was still every bit his equal without even channeling the dark side. Frankly, it's going to be hard for Luke to ever get a better skill-feat than matching(and ultimately besting) arguably *the* best duelist in galactic history. ermm
But I agree that Luke's overall power/skill obvs grew considerably after RotJ, because that's when he really took a "deep dive" into the Force (*enter years of relic/knowledge-hoarding + continuous studying/training.*) Remember, Luke went from being a sassy farm-boy, to a Vader-tier Jedi Knight, with just 4 years of basic/incomplete training. Just imagine what someone with that kind of latent potential could achieve if they had an additional 10+ years of relatively uninterrupted time to train, AND access to all the esoteric Force-related resources they could dream of..? This is basically Luke(or rather, what Luke could still become in canon.) His poor depiction in TLJ doesn't have to define the character -- if anything, his Projection feat should emphasize just how [massively] powerful Luke still was.
That said, all canon projects are now starting to explore the 30 year gap between RotJ and TFA... But it'll still be quite a while before we get to Luke's "Grand Master" (and presumably peak) era.
I honestly struggle to see how they could give Luke feats more impressive than beating Vader at any point post-RotJ. Like, we already have him beating a fully fledged Sith Lord with Exim Panshard. We have him beating Snoke (admittedly, off-screen), who is said to have mastery of the dark side in around the same ballpark as RotJ Sidious (which makes a lot of sense when you consider he's very likely just Sidious remote-puppeting a strandcast from Exegol). How many more Vader+ threats should Luke realistically face during the post-RotJ time period? Legends already seriously stretched it (arguably much too far) with how many high-level dark siders they included after RotJ.
👆
If random Vader-tier+ opponents start popping-up in the gap between RotJ and TFA, I'll be slightly disappointed, but not exactly surprised. Luke being on par with peak Vader THAT early in his career already sets the bar really high, and sort of backs writers into a corner when it comes to the depiction of Luke's post-RotJ progression. I mean, for the sake of storytelling, they'll still need to introduce credible threats at some point -- but throwing random Force-users at Luke isn't really needed to drive the point home anymore, imo. He already beat the best of the best when his powers were still in their infancy.
Yeah, I feel it's likely they stick to more grounded threats like they've been doing so far. Powerful Force sensitive threats like Exim Panshard and Snoke should be few and far between. That said, I hope we actually get to see the confrontation between Luke and Snoke one of these days.
For now, it looks like the comics are doing a modern rendition of the Nagai-Tof conflict from Legends. But without Lumiya there, I'm not all that invested. I wonder if they'll introduce someone else to fill her role.