Originally posted by Delta1938
You took that better than I expected.
Na, i only get rustled when carver says stupid sh*t and uses out of context scans to further his bias, I have been a bit retarded in the late half of this thread because there is no point. I already made my argument and they ignored it, ignored the scans and did not counter anything i said.
I legit was out of breathe at the short bus comment, sh*t was funny.
Originally posted by thingy150
Na, i only get rustled when carver says stupid sh*t and uses out of context scans to further his bias, I have been a bit retarded in the late half of this thread because there is no point. I already made my argument and they ignored it, ignored the scans and did not counter anything i said.
You've done the same to varying degrees, whether knowingly or unknowingly. Like Orion KOing Superman, Superman's narration of "he caught me twice by surprise" indicates the author(well, authors) intended for Superman to be caught unprepared. You post Orion knocking Superman continental distances, but leave out Superman was sneak attacked(Orion came out of nowhere, and statements about the "element of surprise"😉. If anything, it's a feat for Superman, because he shrugged it off. It would've been a much better example for you to use Orion going toe-to-toe with Superman, then bring-up how Superman required a combined effort of Steel, Superboy, Supergirl, Big Barda, Martian Manhunter and Wonder Woman to barely restrain him.
DS wasn't ignoring your other examples, simply focusing on one you did seem to think was huge and he pointed if anything, it made Orion look bad. He told you this, but you kept insisting he was ignoring your other examples.
You post Orion ripping out Darkseid's heart, it's been pointed-out the context. The very narration used makes me something was going on to make Orion pull it off that wouldn't translate into a viable example against other characters. Especially considering other fights from Orion.
You say Orion took on Black Adam, and simply say in your opinion Adam>Superman, but provide absolutely nothing to back it up. In that same storyline under the same author, Superman did just fine against Black Adam and right after an angry Captain Marvel and did fine. And Superman's had power-ups since then.
You say Superman vs Orion in DEATH OF THE NEW GODS is a low showing. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I assume you mean for Orion? Due to you bringing up "but even then it says he and superman are evenly matched in power level." Well, actually it just says "they're evenly matched." Not in power, just "evenly matched." But narration from Darkseid during that same fight actually points towards Superman being stronger. To paraphrase Darkseid, "Superman's strength rivals my own. And Orion has his rage." That seems to me like Superman is stronger, but Orion's going all-out compensates. The later in the series, the same writer had a Source amped Infinity Man(who under normal circumstances has been shown to be stronger than Orion) go toe-to-toe and actually get the upper hand against the Infinity Man hand-to-hand, before IM used energy manipulation to restrain/contain Superman.
And some of your scans are unreadable. The ones with the Oblivion Bomb are too small to read or even see what's going on. That's why those scans have been ignored.
And there's other examples I'm surprised you haven't brought up. I don't recall any scans of Orion's fighting skills. And it'd be quite useful to bring-up Bronze Age JLofA New Gods storyline. Far as I'm aware, COIE didn't have a serious change on the New Gods, and the storyline where the JLA and JSA go to The Fourth World was directly referenced in a Post-CRISIS comic, so it should be canon. There Orion one-shot Firestorm, simultaneously dropped Superman and Power Girl(which is better than sending Superman flying continental distances, since he shrugged that off, but dropping them would mean he actually hurt them) and his Astro-Force blast matched Doctor Fate's blast(I think it might've been just the Astro gauntlets too, not the Astro-Harness). Hell, IRRC it took a combined attack from those 4 to take him down. Better than most of the examples you've given.
Originally posted by thingy150
I legit was out of breathe at the short bus comment, sh*t was funny.
Thanks. And FYI, you can say "shit" here. Bada told me PG-13 level stuff.
Skimmed through it, did you spend a really long time on this?
In my opinion adam is greater or = superman, i did not say he was so i do not have to provide scans but they have fought evenly before.
In my opinion the superman vs orion where they fight evenly is a low showing, orion and all of the new gods are not shown to their full capabilities. Orion with his astro force that can destroy worlds and absorb things that would have broken the universe should always be superior than superman in a fight.
Superman states here that he does not have to hold back when fighting adam.
http://img147.imagevenue.com/aAfkjfp01fo1i-22106/loc24/c87fd_bavssuperman1.jpg
http://img146.imagevenue.com/aAfkjfp01fo1i-20174/loc24/29cf6_bavssuperman2.jpg
http://img147.imagevenue.com/aAfkjfp01fo1i-22106/loc24/c39ea_bavssuperman3.jpg
http://img20.imagevenue.com/aAfkjfp01fo1i-3140/loc24/55c0f_bavssuperman4.jpg
http://img135.imagevenue.com/aAfkjfp01fo1i-30115/loc24/90599_bavssuperman6.jpg
http://img130.imagevenue.com/aAfkjfp01fo1i-30661/loc24/84246_bavssuperman7.jpg
http://img145.imagevenue.com/aAfkjfp01fo1i-16296/loc24/44a9c_bavssuperman8.jpg
http://img43.imagevenue.com/aAfkjfp01fo1i-7502/loc24/d243d_bavssuperman10.jpg
A few of the scans are missing but adam holds his own against superman when superman is not holding back and adam did not want to fight in the first place.
Black adam is greater than superman as a combat feat because he is never holding back, superman is constantly holding back and this is why fighting black adam is a better feat then superman.
I actually have the full scans of superman and orion somewhere here if you want them pasted together here you go:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v58/Desaad/pic003.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v58/Desaad/pic004.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v58/Desaad/pic005.jpg
Superman dodges the first attempts from orion to hit him, superman gets off the first hit, orion eats it and then one shots him.
They were both full aware that they were fighting before orion ended the fight.
How is orion killing darkseid out of context, he plunges his fist into darkseids chest, that shows power.
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/6/67877/2412021-countdown2p18.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/6/67877/2412022-countdown2p19.jpg
He is able to do this to someone as durable as darkseid, that is a hell of a feat.
Orion uses his astro force to the best of its ability whereas the way thor fights he normally tries to brawl. Thor will not use his equipment well enough to beat orion. Orion i have shown to be faster and he can absorb whatever thor can throw at him with the astro force.
The astro force has one shotted beings like superman and has been stated to be able to destroy planets along with the fact that it can create force fields that resend the attack back onto the person who threw the attack.
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/120267/3074966-4531493966-orion.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/120267/3074967-3039840796-orion.jpg
The astro force was able to deflect darkseids omega beams and return it right back to him.
The astro force can disintegrate things on an sub atomic level along with being able to deflect powerful blasts and absorb things that can destroy the universe. The astro force can do much more than this also.
The way i think orion wins is by fighting smarter and using his resources better than thor. Thor is not as fast as orion and has been shown to be slower than wolverine.
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111114474/3575114-thor.jpg
Orion will win by absorbing thors attacks and being able to dish out things that can destroy planets, along with the fact that orion is faster and more durable, Orion wins.
Originally posted by thingy150
Skimmed through it, did you spend a really long time on this?
Er.....what?
Originally posted by thingy150
In my opinion adam is greater or = superman, i did not say he was so i do not have to provide scans but they have fought evenly before.
No, you do have to back your opinion. You made a big deal about Orion fighting Black Adam, and your primary argument that this is impressive is your opinion of Adam>Superman. Without you citing your opinion of Adam>Superman, your example is meaningless based on how you presented it.
Originally posted by thingy150
In my opinion the superman vs orion where they fight evenly is a low showing, orion and all of the new gods are not shown to their full capabilities. Orion with his astro force that can destroy worlds and absorb things that would have broken the universe should always be superior than superman in a fight.
Translation: "I don't like it, so it's a low showing for Orion." Saying the New Gods "aren't shown to their full capabilities" is a Hail Mary for someone without a better argument. And considering all the examples I can show of Superman's powers being dynamic in nature, I can make the same argument for Superman if I wanted. In fact, I can show you a number of times of Superman coming off as superior to Orion. But I take it you'll dismiss them as "bad writing," "PIS" and "low showings?" Not that they don't exist, but most of the time people use that to dismiss examples they don't like.
Originally posted by thingy150
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/12/125716/3343084-1323881-ba_survives_supes_punch.jpgSuperman states here that he does not have to hold back when fighting adam.
http://img147.imagevenue.com/aAfkjfp01fo1i-22106/loc24/c87fd_bavssuperman1.jpg
http://img146.imagevenue.com/aAfkjfp01fo1i-20174/loc24/29cf6_bavssuperman2.jpg
http://img147.imagevenue.com/aAfkjfp01fo1i-22106/loc24/c39ea_bavssuperman3.jpg
http://img20.imagevenue.com/aAfkjfp01fo1i-3140/loc24/55c0f_bavssuperman4.jpg
http://img135.imagevenue.com/aAfkjfp01fo1i-30115/loc24/90599_bavssuperman6.jpg
http://img130.imagevenue.com/aAfkjfp01fo1i-30661/loc24/84246_bavssuperman7.jpg
http://img145.imagevenue.com/aAfkjfp01fo1i-16296/loc24/44a9c_bavssuperman8.jpg
http://img43.imagevenue.com/aAfkjfp01fo1i-7502/loc24/d243d_bavssuperman10.jpgA few of the scans are missing but adam holds his own against superman when superman is not holding back and adam did not want to fight in the first place.
Black adam is greater than superman as a combat feat because he is never holding back, superman is constantly holding back and this is why fighting black adam is a better feat then superman.
Scans aren't working, but I've already read the fight. Have the comic myself so I don't need your scans. And if you pay attention, all it proves is Superman doesn't have to be careful like he does against normal people. No proof he's holding back significantly less than against Captain Marvel or even Orion.
By the way, the writer specifically had Superman state Black Adam is more powerful than Captain Marvel. So that portrayal of Black Adam would be superior to the portrayal of Black Adam that Orion fought.
The scan you showed also stated "hits harder too."
Originally posted by thingy150
I actually have the full scans of superman and orion somewhere here if you want them pasted together here you go:http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v58/Desaad/pic003.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v58/Desaad/pic004.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v58/Desaad/pic005.jpgSuperman dodges the first attempts from orion to hit him, superman gets off the first hit, orion eats it and then one shots him.
They were both full aware that they were fighting before orion ended the fight.
Superman straight-up says Orion surprised him.
You also leave-out that this was Superman in his early days. SUPERMAN CONFIDENTIAL takes place in Superman's first year or so. Superman's had multiple power-ups between this and later fights, so if you complain "bad writing" because Superman takes the Astro-Force and doesn't get KOed in later fights, citing SUPERMAN CONFIDENTIAL #9 doesn't do much even if we ignore Superman's narration of being surprised.
Originally posted by thingy150
How is orion killing darkseid out of context, he plunges his fist into darkseids chest, that shows power.http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/6/67877/2412021-countdown2p18.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/6/67877/2412022-countdown2p19.jpgHe is able to do this to someone as durable as darkseid, that is a hell of a feat.
Maybe because the whole prophecy thing is brought up? The scan before your scene.
And the second scan you posted had Orion say Darkseid's heart was "Firepit enough." Have anything to indicate Orion has the strength to do that under normal circumstances? The whole emphasizing of "pffft you're no threat, there's no Firepits" from Darkseid and Orion's "your heart is Firepit enough" is a pretty strong indication this is not viable to use in general.
Originally posted by thingy150
Orion uses his astro force to the best of its ability whereas the way thor fights he normally tries to brawl. Thor will not use his equipment well enough to beat orion. Orion i have shown to be faster and he can absorb whatever thor can throw at him with the astro force.The astro force has one shotted beings like superman and has been stated to be able to destroy planets along with the fact that it can create force fields that resend the attack back onto the person who threw the attack.
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/120267/3074966-4531493966-orion.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/120267/3074967-3039840796-orion.jpgThe astro force was able to deflect darkseids omega beams and return it right back to him.
The astro force can disintegrate things on an sub atomic level along with being able to deflect powerful blasts and absorb things that can destroy the universe. The astro force can do much more than this also.
The way i think orion wins is by fighting smarter and using his resources better than thor. Thor is not as fast as orion and has been shown to be slower than wolverine.
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111114474/3575114-thor.jpg
Orion will win by absorbing thors attacks and being able to dish out things that can destroy planets, along with the fact that orion is faster and more durable, Orion wins.
Outside the fact that you keep leaving out context on Superman being KOed, this is largely irrelevant to me as I never argued for Thor. Simply the numerous issues with your arguments(and there's other problems I didn't address, like your arguments of Darkseid vs Superman to bolster Orion being out of context). I have to wonder if you've even read the comics you're citing scans from, or just grabbed them from Respect Threads like others have said.
