So if makashi is weak vs strong forms, its weak vs half of the forms? Juyo, vaapad, djem? This doesn't seem right to me....
Makashi seems very deadly to me, more so then vaapad or jyo which is more wild. Makashi is based on speed, precision, biut why can't it also be power, like why can not one use vaapad with makashi? Channel their inner darkness into their makashi for power,speed, as well as its natural precision, deadliness?
"So if makashi is weak vs strong forms, its weak vs half of the forms? Juyo, vaapad, djem? This doesn't seem right to me...."
Again, this is where we get off the strictly doctrinaire issues, because in the end much lies on the individual skills and style of the combatants and how well they can do things like adapt to sudden changes, read their opponent, etc. As a general rule, though, Makashi does not do well against styles that get "in your face" and which feature constant relentless attacking. This is NOT to say that a Makashi user cannot survive such a strategy, particularly if they are good and their opponent is not so, but this is a general rule, like "Battleships usually cannot defeat Aircraft carriers."
"Makashi is based on speed, precision, biut why can't it also be power"
Because it really isn't FOCUSED on landing powerful hits, but rather on nickel-and-diming the opponent by countering their attacks and waiting until they get sufficiently tired to actually finish off. For much of the fight it focuses more on harassment and defense than on attack.
But what if it were a attack based makashi, aiming for vital and deadly precise hits, instead of nickel and diming.
What iif one were to channel their inner darkness into it as well, like vaapad, to buff their speed, strength and power, would that be possible? A blend of vaapad and makashi?
That's what I mean...I also believe a master of kakashi would defeat most othe forms, including vaapad, and juyo. I think dookus main reasons for losing to anakin were psychological, underestimating, not retreating, going brute blows vs blows, rather then parrying and redirecting the kinetic force of his opponent makashi specializes in?
I for one think a makashi /vaapad hybrid would be amaing, or say if sidious was a makashi master, he could use his mass dark side energy to buff his makashi blows right?
I really see no reason makashi is weak vs strong forms, the user could just redirect strong kinetic hits, dodge, or parry. Or use strong strikes their self by using their force energy to buffer their attacks and using momentum from speed.
Granted it was stated that Dooku's Makashi didn't possess the kinetic power to meet Anakin's Djem So head to head, but that was Anakin's Djem So -- the same Anakin who was tapping so much force energy that he was compared to a "thermonuclear furnace" of which Dooku feared ever going supercritical (which he ultimately did anyway.)
But yeah, in an all things being equal match, I'd give the nod to a master of Makashi over a master of Djem So every single time.
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Right. I'm positive that in a typical match between the two, Djem So's power wouldn't come off as being an advantage because of Makashi's ability to deflect the blade without flat-out blocking it head-on. Power would be irrelevant, then. But Anakin was so fast Dooku perceived the air in front of him as being painted blue with his lightsaber glow. Definitely not the standard Djem So user.
Yep. Anakin was simply more powerful -- that's the main reason he won. Realistically, ALL forms would be hindered to at least some degree if their user(s) were combating a more powerful opponent. That said, Dooku could have been using any form of lightsaber combat (sans perhaps Vaapad) and he would have been tooled just the same.
...Though Makashi was likely the best form Dooku could have been using in that situation (saber to saber) -- but against Anakin's raw power, it counted for nothing.
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I think Soresu would've been better, personally. I mean, Obi-Wan was definitely weaker than Vader on Mustafar, and it showed in the novel, yet he had none of the trouble Dooku had dealing with it.
I've always wondered if General Grievous went all out in his sparring matches with Dooku?
I'm only ask because after GG kicked up his striking speed to 20 per second, it was enough to overwhelm even Obi-Wan's Soresu. Dooku, on the other hand, casually dueled with GG as though he were a skilless feeb.
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These post have provided much understanding and broad insight. However why is it in the versus matches people say vaapad is the best and would trump dookus makashi due to raw power every time? Makashi is designed to nulify power.
I don't see vaapad mace as more powerful or faster then anakin when they dueled, or was he? I'm not making statements, I'm asking, that's why I post here to learn. Would dookus makashi be able to beat mace"s vaapad?
Also is vaapad esentially juyo+ability to channel inner darkness? But don't dark side juyo users already do that? What's the diff bw a vaapad user and master juyo user?
Oooo let's say a master of makashi vs a master of vaapad fought, both equal level, which would win going by saber form?
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I have to assume it was just that - sparring. I mean, remember in ROTS when Dooku still thinks Obi-Wan is using Ataru and runs through a set of sequences designed to get Obi-Wan to jump into the air so he can kill him? Obi-Wan blocks every strike without even moving his feet. And for the rest of the match he does well lightsaber-to-lightsaber against him. That'd suggest to me that at the very least, Obi-Wan's Soresu was on par with Dooku's Makashi speed-wise.
Also general grievous strength wise and speed wise was on windus level? If so how was dooku able to fight him so easily...its things like these that make me think makashi would beat heavy kinetic styles, and that its loss to djem so was based upon special circumstances via anakin?
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If Dooku wasn't drawing on the Dark Side during the match (Grey Jedi can do that), then IMO Dooku's got a good chance at beating Mace and his Vaapad. They're about equals, skill-wise.
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I feel kind of compelled to point out another instance of Makashi vs. Djem So aside from Dooku and Anakin.
Jedi Master Valenthyne Farfalla was most likely a master of Makashi, who had months of combat experience fighting and killing Sith opponents at the Battle of Ruusan. Yet even amped by Battle Meditation and joined by other Jedi, he had trouble with Darth Bane (who wielded Djem So.) And once the Battle Meditation was interrupted and Farfalla had to fight Bane one-on-one, Bane easily overwhelmed and killed him.
As Eny said, Mace would be able to best Dooku, because Dooku is a dark sider... And Vaapad quite literally eats darkness for lunch.
Vaapad channels the darkness of it's user AND that of the opponent as an offensive 'weapon of the lght' (which is why it is arguably the most powerful form.)
I would still give the nod to Vaapad in an all things being equal match vs. Makashi. Mainly because a user of Vaapad is still free to harness their own inner darkness.
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Last edited by Galan007 on Jun 26th, 2010 at 07:24 PM
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And....
The difference between a Juyo Master and a Vaapad master, in addition to the channeling darkness thing, is that Juyo is an incomplete form. Mace took Juyo, perfected it and made it his own. I imagine Juyo against Vaapad is the difference between a flintlock gun and a gas-powered gun. Same basic principle, with one being the more polished, finished product.
Why can't a makashi channel its own inner darkness as well?
I don't see vaapad as any more developed or indepth then any other form....if juyo was incomplete, which it may have been so in maces perception, but tha doesn't make it so across perceptual reality of all who view it.
I just do not understand how some perceive that vaapad trumps all, or is more refined, powerful, overall better then any other form, especially one specifically for 1v1 saber fighting.
Its already been discussed tha makashi isn't weak vs kinetic force, just dooku was unable to handle "anakins" kinetic force, which was greater then any others at that moment, along with speed?
I see vaapad as being a varient of juyo, one which channels an individuals inner darkness in a cerain way and utilizes it with juyo. I also believe one could so with makashi, or any form. As for using anothers darkness against them, or use their light against them, I see any form being able to do this, all dependent upon the individual.
In essence I see makashi vs vaapad as makashi vs juyo+skill in channeling ones own emotion and or other person/s emotion. The channeling bit being non exclusive to any form, and able to be utilized by any form all dependent upon the indvidual. Light or darkness, an individual could channel their opponents light or darkness given enough skill and practice.
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Last edited by Board Walker on Jun 26th, 2010 at 08:37 PM
Jun 26th, 2010 02:24 PM
