RotS Mace Windu VS RotS Count Dooku

Originally posted by Master_Starbuck
Well first off, seeing as how Form VII is the byproduct of completely combining all of the main Forms, it is essential for the practitioner to at least gain a focused knowledge of all the main Forms in order to successfully learn Juyo - and in this I mean that whilst a person is learning Juyo, they are learning every technique of every main Form though put into different dimensions within the current Form they are learning. Consequently, when a Jedi masters Juyo, they gain mastery in every Form before it through merit of association.

By the way, precisely which conversation is supposed to show that Mace isn't a Master of Soresu?
Mace has mastered Soresu, as Yoda has - but it was revealed in LoE that Obi-Wan had mastered it to a degree above all other Jedi, even more than some others who had also mastered the art.

If that somehow leaves room for an implication that Mace could be a Soresu master, we must have different understandings of the English language.

Due to his Juyo and Vapaad mastery, Mace has an equal If not surpassed familiarity of Ataru, so Dooku would not be able to use this against him, If anything it would most likely be the other way around.

Lol, aww, so mean. 😉 Actually Niman is a quite reliable Form and is well-balanced. It get's a bad rap due to the people that used it were generally green Knights and Padawans facing hundreds of blaster-wielding combatants in a closed-in environment.

That and Jango Fett, one of the greatest Mandalorians ever using a Mandalorian coined technique that allows them to time their shots through the defense of a lightsaber's blade.

Also, Master Tholme If I'm not mistaken was also a Master of Makashi.

Originally posted by Faunus
Where is this stated?

Again, due to his Mastery in Juyo, he had mastered those said Forms and of course, the rest, especially during his conception of Vapaad.

Whilst Dooku had some degree of profiency is those Forms stated above, he was only known to have mastered Makashi, and while his mastery of said art was extremely great - the characteristics and qualities of a much deadlier style of swordsmanship would seal Dooku's fate, as a corpse.

So, your right, Mace does not have the same degree of technical skill and knowledge as Dooku. Upon revision of his swordsmanship, it is now known that his degree of technical skill and knowledge surpasses Dooku, and while the Shatterpoint ability may not be instantaneous in the duel, the sheer sum of techniques found in Vapaad would be enough for Windu to utilize an effective defense until the shatterpoint could be located and struck.

If Dooku tried to use his lightning Mace would redirect it with moderate difficulty and cut him down.

Given your arguments, Faunus, I have but one question: is it your testimony that Windu would likely not defeat Sidious in a rematch? Because it is the general consensus (by even myself) that he could. You seem to imply that Dooku is capable of eliminating Windu in an all out fight with the Force, but if that were the case, so would Sidious, since he's more powerful than Dooku himself.

Where is any of this canonically stated?

It's common knowledge. Juyo is a combination of all the main Forms, and the rest is obvious.

"If that somehow leaves room for an implication that Mace could be a Soresu master, we must have different understandings of the English language."

It doesn't leave room for the implication that he isn't a Soresu Master.

I didn't say Dooku would be able to use it against him; I said Mace wouldn't be able to use it against Dooku. Read.

I know what you said, and I already explained that he could.

"I don't see why you'd even bother arguing this; Niman got a bad rep because it's taught to those who wish to emphasize diplomacy over skills with a lightsaber; it teaches the Jedi pieces of the major forms, excluding Juyo, without ever allowing them to capitalize on any one strength. This is why so many Jedi died at Geonosis; you think an army of AotC Obi-Wans or Kit Fistos would have had so many deaths in such a short amount of time?"

When you capitalize on a single strength you exclude the others, thus breeding weakness in your technique, and the Jedi that used it were green, inexperienced and almost half of them Padawans.
The Form had almost nothing to do with their deaths. Their overall experience and their enviorment sealed their fates.
I wouldn't expect copies of more powerful and experienced Jedi like Fisto and Kenobi to be killed in the same manner.

"Not that I'm contesting it, but where is this stated?"

Everyone knows Jango Fett was one of the Greatest Mandalorian warriors to ever live, and the technique he employed is why you didn't read about Jedi Knights effortlessly killing Mandalorian warriors in the Mandalorian Wars.
Funnily, my dad who is an ex-Ranger pointed at the screen the first time he watched AotC with me and said, "See him fire his pistol? He's timing those shot's."
If you've got more firearms experience than a Ranger in the United States Military please, feel free to let me know. 😉
(By the way watch that scene again for yourself just so you can be sure)

"See the above..."

Exactly, re-read what I wrote. Read it as many times as it takes for it to sink in.

"Some level of proficiency" was enough to train advanced droids to successfully take on Jedi Knights. "

Yes it was, that and their lightsaber-proofed weapons and computerized-reflexes also played a tiny role. 😉

"Once this is backed up as I requested earlier, I'll give it some credence. "

Re-read my post. I gave all the information you need.

"In a Force battle? No. Because he won't have a lightsaber."

He won't need one. If he can pick up a steamcrawler weighing many tons and tier it into place, then he can contest with Dooku's TK.
If not, he only has to simply close his fist and turn Dooku's insides to confetti.

Originally posted by Gideon
Given your arguments, Faunus, I have but one question: is it your testimony that Windu would likely not defeat Sidious in a rematch? Because it is the general consensus (by even myself) that he could. You seem to imply that Dooku is capable of eliminating Windu in an all out fight with the Force, but if that were the case, so would Sidious, since he's more powerful than Dooku himself.

Good point, Gideon. 🙂

That won't quite cut it; Faunus wants to know where it's specifically stated that Jango "coined the technique in question".

It's kind of an obvious point, like how a human being breathes air instead of say, methane.

Also, If Mandalorians didn't time their shots through the defenses of a lightsaber's blade they would either have to shoot through the blades or be killed.
Since they haven't been, the former is obvious.
That and I don't think 20 years of experience in the United States Military is going to be wrong.

I have to go now, so I'll respond to whatever comments Faunus has tomorrow, and If it turns out he has more experience in the military than my father I'm going to go ahead and salute him in advance, just to be safe.

*Salutes* usaflag

Bye! 😉

You'll pardon me, but your father's experience means absolute shit to this argument.

Edit: Would it be easy to assume that, after 20 years in the military, your father would be able to master the edit function on a simple set of forums? If so, it's a trait that apparently didn't find its way into your gene pool.

Originally posted by Gideon
Given your arguments, Faunus, I have but one question: is it your testimony that Windu would likely not defeat Sidious in a rematch?

Edit: Escape covered the second part of my reply fairly completely. As for the rest, Starbuck, I won't be replying to your "arguments" until you stop pulling garbage out of your ass.

Originally posted by Master_Starbuck
It's kind of an obvious point, like how a human being breathes air instead of say, methane.

Also, If Mandalorians didn't time their shots through the defenses of a lightsaber's blade they would either have to shoot through the blades or be killed.

I highly doubt that in the middle of the battle the mandalorians had sufficient time to to time their shots, the more likely explanation is that the Mandalorians used superior numbers to overwhelm the jedi. As the clones (which are descents of the mandalorians being clone from one and relieved similar training.) and the battle droids do throughout the clones wars.

Originally posted by Gideon
You'll pardon me, but your father's experience means absolute shit to this argument.

Edit: Would it be easy to assume that, after 20 years in the military, your father would be able to master the edit function on a simple set of forums? If so, it's a trait that apparently didn't find its way into your gene pool.

Lol. I was actually joking, not about my father's experience, but about the saluting part. I was going to say that my answer on the timed shots was kind of obvious, but that It was Faunus' right to object, and that I respected his opinion.

I have to say to you Gideon that demeaning my father's experience is personally insulting to me.
My father received a master marksmanship medal in Berlin for receiving top scores at his jump school.
With 20 years of using every weapon our country devised in combat maneuvers, I would say that would give him just about enough experience to have some valuable opinion on whether a gun functions in a certain way or not.
He pointed out to me physically Jango's actions on the screen and said he managed to strike the Jedi Master because he timed the shots through the target zones covered by the blade.
With his special forces knowledge, I'd be inclined to believe him.

If you have a problem with the word of a veteran, perhaps you should go meet with a couple and inform them of how they're opinion means shit to you.

See how many teeth you have left by the time you regain consciousness.

You should have more respect for our men and women in uniform than to say something so brash. Shame on you. pissed

Originally posted by Faunus
I think it could go either way, depending primarily on location. If Mace could trap Sidious in a duel like he did in RotS, in a manner where he could offensively cut loose, he'd probably win every time. But his chances of victory start eroding tremendously once the Sith Lord starts tossing out the Force attacks; by his own volition, Mace felt that Sidious' lightning was "beyond Vaapad."

Edit: Escape covered the second part of my reply fairly completely. As for the rest, Starbuck, I won't be replying to your "arguments" until you stop pulling garbage out of your ass.

Well it turns out Sidious lightning wasn't beyond Vapaad seeming as how you reflected it back every time until Anakin's betrayal.
And your already aware of the fact that due to a good amount of evidence I provided Mace's TK is roughly as strong as Dooku's, and then of course there is the insta-kill Force-Crush.

As for escape, I had to go to my little sister's recital and couldn't get back to reply until it was late and had to go to bed to get up for my job in the morning.
If you don't live in your mother's basement and have one, then you probably know how that is.

In terms of escape, this is your way of escaping a losing argument with me. I obviously proved all your prior arguments wrong so your just going to latch onto the observation that Jango Fett obviously timed his shot's through Trebor Coleman's lightsaber defense.

Like the above post I was going to say that I respect your opinion and that it's your right to believe what you want to, but I'd have to say at this point that is ridiculously obvious that the shots were timed.

As for pulling garbage out of ones ass, you've pulled more garbage out of your ass than than I have. I've had to brief you on things you already should have known about Jedi before bringing a futile argument to me.

If you want to use this as a little excuse to cover your ass, then I'll except this as a concession of defeat from you.

If you feel your up to the task of debating with me rather than trying to find a way out of losing, you can let me know.

Otherwise I accept your defeat.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
I highly doubt that in the middle of the battle the mandalorians had sufficient time to to time their shots, the more likely explanation is that the Mandalorians used superior numbers to overwhelm the jedi. As the clones (which are descents of the mandalorians being clone from one and relieved similar training.) and the battle droids do throughout the clones wars.

Actually timing ones shot's in the middle of a firefight is second-nature to a soldier that spent countless months or years honing it in the field.

Mandalorian's did use overwhelming numbers to destroy Jedi in battle, however If that was they're only way of killing Jedi they wouldn't be the renowned fighters they are.
They can decimate Jedi numbers because they know how and when to fire just right to kill a Jedi, such of course as Jango Fett did to take out an experienced Jedi Master.

Clones and especially the A.R.C.s are trained to be specially accurate and well-timed when using blasters.

Mace 13 Dooku O

When it get's to 15 I'll declare Mace the winner, unless someone can manage to bring an argument to prove otherwise.

I'm slightly embarrassed that one of our army's finest can generate offspring incapable of mastering the edit function on a set of forums. Newsflash: there is no need for you to make multiple posts unless you've surpassed the posting limit (which you haven't). You're wasting space and REX doesn't like that.

As far as your father is concerned, get your head out of his ass. I didn't insult him, I said a simple fact: his experience means shit to this argument. He's not a character in the movies, he's not George Lucas, he's not the omniscient narrator of a novelization. His opinion, accomplishments, and existence is completely and utterly without purpose in this debate.

I don't care about Edit functions, so go whine to someone else about that.

I'm aware that he isn't a character in Star Wars, but even soldiers in Star Wars time their shots. That much is obvious, and what I pointed out about Jango Fett doesn't convey canon or not convey it, it's just a simple obvious observation.

So get over it.

Originally posted by Master_Starbuck
I don't care about Edit functions, so go whine to someone else about that.

You're breaking rules and being generally annoying. This will likely get you banned, and then you can go tell daddy that you were booted off of an online forum because you refused to listen to the rules. Given that the military focuses on extreme discipline and obedience, perhaps it will prepare you for your supposed deployment to Iraq.

So, stow it soldier and do as commanded.

Originally posted by Master_Starbuck
Well it turns out Sidious lightning wasn't beyond Vapaad seeming as how you reflected it back every time until Anakin's betrayal.

But of course, I guess we have to check with your dad first.

And your already aware of the fact that due to a good amount of evidence I provided Mace's TK is roughly as strong as Dooku's,

In other words, and continuing a long, irksome pattern, you've proved nothing.

and then of course there is the insta-kill Force-Crush

I've been asking you for proof to support this since the initial claim was made; there has been none.

And again, if you're basing this on the time it takes to get the attack off, all Dooku has to do is raise a finger, if that.

As for escape, I had to go to my little sister's recital and couldn't get back to reply until it was late and had to go to bed to get up for my job in the morning.

Escape = Gideon's previous username, and the one I knew him by for a year and a half.

In terms of escape, this is your way of escaping a losing argument with me. I obviously proved all your prior arguments wrong so your just going to latch onto the observation that Jango Fett obviously timed his shot's through Trebor Coleman's lightsaber defense.

You proved nothing.

Like the above post I was going to say that I respect your opinion and that it's your right to believe what you want to, but I'd have to say at this point that is ridiculously obvious that the shots were timed.

Originally posted by You
That and Jango Fett, one of the greatest Mandalorians ever using a Mandalorian coined technique that allows them to time their shots through the defense of a lightsaber's blade.

Which makes you a liar, as you demonstrated with several claims that I'll detail later.

As for pulling garbage out of ones ass, you've pulled more garbage out of your ass than than I have. I've had to brief you on things you already should have known about Jedi before bringing a futile argument to me.

If you want to use this as a little excuse to cover your ass, then I'll except this as a concession of defeat from you.

On the Content of Juyo:[quote]Originally posted by You
Well first off, seeing as how Form VII is the byproduct of completely combining all of the main Forms, it is essential for the practitioner to at least gain a focused knowledge of all the main Forms in order to successfully learn Juyo - and in this I mean that whilst a person is learning Juyo, they are learning every technique of every main Form though put into different dimensions within the current Form they are learning. Consequently, when a Jedi masters Juyo, they gain mastery in every Form before it through merit of association.

Originally posted by Me
Where is any of this canonically stated?

Originally posted by You
It's common knowledge. Juyo is a combination of all the main Forms, and the rest is obvious.

On Tholme's Makashi Mastery:[quote]Originally posted by You
Also, Master Tholme If I'm not mistaken was also a Master of Makashi.

Originally posted by Me
Where is this stated?

If you feel your up to the task of debating with me rather than trying to find a way out of losing, you can let me know.

Otherwise I accept your defeat.

Otherwise, STFU.