Need to interrupt the debate here. Was just rereading the rules, and not entirely sure whether TPM Jinn is prime Jinn. In fact it's entirely possible that a Jinn 5 or 10 years earlier could be stronger. There's a couple of quotes that sort of allude to this as well, actually. I'll find them and post them soon.
Originally posted by Meatpants
Need to interrupt the debate here. Was just rereading the rules, and not entirely sure whether TPM Jinn is prime Jinn. In fact it's entirely possible that a Jinn 5 or 10 years earlier could be stronger. There's a couple of quotes that sort of allude to this as well, actually. I'll find them and post them soon.
mhmm
Originally posted by Meatpants😕
Need to interrupt the debate here. Was just rereading the rules, and not entirely sure whether TPM Jinn is prime Jinn. In fact it's entirely possible that a Jinn 5 or 10 years earlier could be stronger. There's a couple of quotes that sort of allude to this as well, actually. I'll find them and post them soon.
Okay, so I've decided that TPM Gui-Gon is not prime Qui-Gon, due to a plethora of quotes indicating that his age has diminished his overall combat performance by a significant extent. I know that Antoine Bandele in his videos considers Jinn's prime as when he apprentices Xanatos, but that's way too early and unpredictable. I would say that around the start of the Jedi Apprentice series, or approximately a decade before the events of TPM, would be Jinn's "prime", in that it presents Jinn before his physicality begins to degenerate. In the Jedi Apprentice series, Jinn engages in a number of duels with Xanatos, all of which show no sign of fatigue or stamina issues, despite both combatants engaging for significant lengths of time (albeit with Jinn being a clear superior to Xanatos). In terms of whether Jinn's pure swordsmanship abilities improved or declined over the decade leading up to TPM, the novelisation implies that Jinn's saber skills had weakened, and that any edge he had (if any) was through experience:
Qui-Gon was nearing sixty; his youth was behind him and his strength was beginning to diminish. His edge now, to the extent that he had one, came from his long experience and intuitive grasp of how an adversary might employ a lightsaber against him.
-TPM Novelisation
Surely then, a decade prior around the start of the Jedi apprentice series, Jinn's strength was still intact, and although he didn't have all of his youth, he still would be in way better shape for extended dueling periods than his TPM incarnation. In addition, there's a handful of quotes that support this basic premise by highlighting Jinn's age as a major, if not primary, factor in the deterioration of Jinn's overall combative ability. These are provided below:
He was the best swordsman Obi-Wan had ever seen, but he was growing old.
-TPM Novelisation
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His opponent was strong and had tested him severely. He was getting old, he decided, and he did not like the feeling.
-TPM Novelisation
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The final battle with Darth Maul in the Theed power generator was fast, furious, and fatal. Qui-Gon, a master duelist by anyone's standards, no longer had the stamina of youth.
-The New Essential Guide to Characters
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The Jedi activated their lightsabers, and Maul noticed Qui-Gon Jinn's blade flashed a fraction of a second after Obi-Wan's.
The old Jedi's getting slow.
-The Wrath of Darth Maul
We could perhaps attempt to compare this to a quote from one of Jinn's duels with Xanatos, though it could be argued that the perspective is that of Obi-Wan's:
Qui-Gon's grace and power were astounding as time and time again he met Xanatos with his thrusting lightsaber, protecting himself and Obi-Wan from blows.
-Jedi Apprentice: Dark Rival
As mentioned before, in the Jedi Apprentice series, as far as I know, Jinn's stamina is never displayed as an issue. Additionally, the first quote I've provided in this post points heavily that his skills as a swordsman, especially in terms of strength and speed, were diminishing, and had to be replaced with experience and intuition. Though, JA (Jedi Apprentice) Jinn, a decade younger, would have nonexistent stamina issues relative to his TPM incarnation, without TOO much of a downgrade in experience. Again, there's a plethora of quotes indicating that the primary reason for the deterioration of Jinn's overall combative performance was his age and flagging stamina.
Originally posted by Intr3pId
Sora's accolade pertaining to his status as one of the greatest lightsaber instructors of all time is indisputable. Neither Qui-Gon nor Agen are praised similarly in an out-of-universe source, to my knowledge. So Sora wins in a battle of accolades.
In regards to the incorrectly sourced quote, it comes from the New Essential Guide to Characters, which is an out-of-universe accolade stating that Jinn is a master duelist by anyone's standards. Combined with the heavy number of quotes solidifying Jinn as a master duelist and being one of the best in the Order is hard to argue against, really. Anyway, this point has run its course, as you have stated yourself, so we'll leave it as is for now.
For my interpretation of the Tantooine duel, note first:
The Jedi meets my first blow, blocking it. He has expected my flying maneuver.
If an opponent can read you, the fight is over. I don't like that the Jedi was perfectly prepared for my first blow. Within seconds, I throw away my usual combinations and strategies. This Jedi seems to know how I will move before I do.
-Episode I Journal: Darth Maul
It's a bit of a stretch, but Maul throws away his "usual combinations and strategies" within seconds of the duel starting. Why else would he do that, unless he considered his standard approach as compromising him? Jinn is also said to have "almost" taken Maul off-guard. Presumably, being taken off-guard means making a mistake that Jinn could exploit to kill Maul. This all happens within seconds of the duel beginning, it seems. Take it as you will.
Originally posted by Intr3pId
That Qui-Gon is better than Anoon is obvious. But Anoon is utterly featless, and nothing implies he was anything more than a skilled swordsman. Aayla would beat him. Fighting evenly with Quinlan is better than whatever accolades he has to his name.
Anoon Bondara being utterly featless is utterly incorrect:
-The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia
He's defined by an out-of-universe authority as "one of the best fighters and duel instructors in the Jedi Order. He also doesn't get stomped by Maul, as indicated by the fact that Maul was unable to bring down Bondara's guard despite "doubling" his efforts. Another in-universe accolade cements this even further:
Always still and complacent as a pool of unknown depth, he was nevertheless one of the best fighters in the order.
Darth Maul Shadow Hunter
Originally posted by Intr3pId
Gonna need a quote/scan with source as well for the ''evidence'' as well as him practicing Juyo.Post the source for Anoon utilizing Juyo first.
-Jedi Academy Training Manual
Bondara is also a Weapon Master:
To provide context for the rank of Weapon Master:
Only a handful were ever elevated to the rank of Jedi Weapons Master, and these were revered for their skills.
-Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia
As for the evidence regarding Bondara as being the temple instructor before Cin Drallig, it comes from Wookiepedia:
In both of Bondara's appearances he is described as having lightsaber skills second to none. This has led some to hypothesize that Anoon Bondara was the Jedi Battlemaster prior to Cin Drallig. The information mentioned above, the fact that he was the lightsaber instructor to Jedi Initiates and Padawans such as Obi-Wan Kenobi, and that he died in 32 BBY, the same year Cin Drallig became Battlemaster, are cited by some to support this theory.
It seems pretty solid. Anyway, as shown above, Bondara is confirmed by an out-of-universe source as one of the best fighters and duel instructors in the Order, meaning he presumably mastered all forms of lightsaber combat, or enough to adequately teach Jedi the technical aspects of each form. He's also a confirmed Juyo specialist, a form that only extremely talented Masters are capable of mastering. And Jinn is solidly > above him. And unlike Jedi like Secura, or equals on her level such as Quinlan Vos or Tholme, Bondara is not only confirmed as one of the best duelists and instructors in the Jedi Order, but also a Weapon Master and Juyo specialist. Bondara is > Secura or Quinlan Vos, due to having better accolades, and Jinn is one tier ahead of Bondara, making Jinn at a stomping level against Vos and Secura, at least in terms of sabers, and therefore comparable to Agen Kolar. To further cement this, Agen Kolar is still < Maul.
I'll quickly address some of the other points here, despite already establishing my "scaling chain" so-to-speak.
Originally posted by Intr3pId
Qui-Gon is a more reputable swordsman than Quinlan, yes. Does he eclipse Quinlan in sheer skill? Possibly. Probably. Is that alone sufficient to deem him the better of the two? Not at all. As I mentioned previously, Quinlan is younger and more endurant, not to mention comparably powerful and a more enthusiastic telekinetic. He enjoys as many edges over Qui-Gon as the reverse. He might not outskill Qui-Gon, but with his greater energy and tendency to be nimble, he could certainly tax him and then beat him in a lightsaber duel or overwhelm him telekinetically.
I've already established that Jinn is > Vos in skill above, so you can address that there. Vos uses TK more often in combat, but I don't see how Jinn is going to be particularly disadvantaged here. He's been shown capable of integrating TK and stuff in combat if needed, and he's a confirmed council-tier Master in the force, which trumps Vos. And there's no indication that an agile opponent is going to disadvantage Jinn. The only agile/nimble opponent that beat Jinn, Maul, was a tier 8 duelist, so that doesn't even matter. As shown with Jinn's spar with Tahl, he had no problem dealing with acrobatic opponents. Also, Jinn as of Jedi Apprentice has a lot more stamina, and is capable of dueling for extended periods of time without signs of fatigue. Furthermore, he was also capable of adapting to the changing circumstances of a fight by switching to a more Makashi style approach, as demonstrated here:
Still Qui-Gon adapted his style to fit the area. He used short jabs, sometimes falling on one knee to come at Xanatos from below.
-Jedi Apprentice: The Captive Temple
Vos' Ataru gets stomped by Jinn's Ataru/Makashi hybrid style.
Originally posted by Intr3pId
As for Dooku's opinion on Quinlan's lightsaber skills, I see your point, but then, Dooku commended Tholme for his skills. As we know, Tholme and Quinlan were roughly even.
Yeah, but that might be because of Dooku's bias towards "classical" fighting styles. Point is, Vos' Ataru isn't going to go down well with Jinn's mastery of Makashi.
Last post.
Meatpants
Okay, so I've decided that TPM Gui-Gon is not prime Qui-Gon, due to a plethora of quotes indicating that his age has diminished his overall combat performance by a significant extent. I know that Antoine Bandele in his videos considers Jinn's prime as when he apprentices Xanatos, but that's way too early and unpredictable. I would say that around the start of the Jedi Apprentice series, or approximately a decade before the events of TPM, would be Jinn's "prime", in that it presents Jinn before his physicality begins to degenerate. In the Jedi Apprentice series, Jinn engages in a number of duels with Xanatos, all of which show no sign of fatigue or stamina issues, despite both combatants engaging for significant lengths of time (albeit with Jinn being a clear superior to Xanatos).
Meatpants
In terms of whether Jinn's pure swordsmanship abilities improved or declined over the decade leading up to TPM, the novelisation implies that Jinn's saber skills had weakened, and that any edge he had (if any) was through experience:Qui-Gon was nearing sixty; his youth was behind him and his strength was beginning to diminish. His edge now, to the extent that he had one, came from his long experience and intuitive grasp of how an adversary might employ a lightsaber against him.
-TPM NovelisationSurely then, a decade prior around the start of the Jedi apprentice series, Jinn's strength was still intact, and although he didn't have all of his youth, he still would be in way better shape for extended dueling periods than his TPM incarnation. In addition, there's a handful of quotes that support this basic premise by highlighting Jinn's age as a major, if not primary, factor in the deterioration of Jinn's overall combative ability. These are provided below:
Another thing is that I can just apply the same logic regarding Qui-Gon's experience. By going back a decade, he loses 10 years of said experience, which was his only advantage on Maul in TPM.
Anything about pre-TPM Qui-Gon's level of anything is largely speculative. I'm going to need some strong points with evidence behind them before I'll entertain the idea of pre-TPM Qui-Gon being a substantially different beast than TPM Qui-Gon.
Meatpants
In regards to the incorrectly sourced quote, it comes from the New Essential Guide to Characters, which is an out-of-universe accolade stating that Jinn is a master duelist by anyone's standards. Combined with the heavy number of quotes solidifying Jinn as a master duelist and being one of the best in the Order is hard to argue against, really. Anyway, this point has run its course, as you have stated yourself, so we'll leave it as is for now.
Meatpants
It's a bit of a stretch, but Maul throws away his "usual combinations and strategies" within seconds of the duel starting. Why else would he do that, unless he considered his standard approach as compromising him? Jinn is also said to have "almost" taken Maul off-guard. Presumably, being taken off-guard means making a mistake that Jinn could exploit to kill Maul. This all happens within seconds of the duel beginning, it seems. Take it as you will.
Meatpants
Anoon Bondara being utterly featless is utterly incorrect:-The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia
He's defined by an out-of-universe authority as "one of the best fighters and duel instructors in the Jedi Order. He also doesn't get stomped by Maul, as indicated by the fact that Maul was unable to bring down Bondara's guard despite "doubling" his efforts. Another in-universe accolade cements this even further:
Always still and complacent as a pool of unknown depth, he was nevertheless one of the best fighters in the order.
Darth Maul Shadow Hunter
re: Juyo, I tend to ignore those RPG attributes, but whatever. Not too interested in arguing the validity of it.
Meatpants
It seems pretty solid. Anyway, as shown above, Bondara is confirmed by an out-of-universe source as one of the best fighters and duel instructors in the Order, meaning he presumably mastered all forms of lightsaber combat, or enough to adequately teach Jedi the technical aspects of each form. He's also a confirmed Juyo specialist, a form that only extremely talented Masters are capable of mastering. And Jinn is solidly > above him. And unlike Jedi like Secura, or equals on her level such as Quinlan Vos or Tholme, Bondara is not only confirmed as one of the best duelists and instructors in the Jedi Order, but also a Weapon Master and Juyo specialist. Bondara is > Secura or Quinlan Vos, due to having better accolades, and Jinn is one tier ahead of Bondara, making Jinn at a stomping level against Vos and Secura, at least in terms of sabers, and therefore comparable to Agen Kolar. To further cement this, Agen Kolar is still < Maul.
Nothing that Qui-Gon has accomplished makes me think he would beat Quinlan for any kind of majority. Being a bit generous, he could beat Quinlan, but only after a grueling fight. Qui-Gon has beaten Xanatos, beaten Anoon, and lost to Maul. Quinlan beat two Morgukai while injured, beat Aayla, and lost to Agen. I see no monumental disparity. If anything, Quinlan has a small edge. Qui-Gon was held in higher regard as a swordsman than Quinlan ever was, so that evens it out.
Force-wise, Qui-Gon has telekinetically pulled two Jedi out of a river, telepathically influenced hutts, influenced his own breathing to survive gas leaks and remain undetected from droids, and controlled beasts, to name some examples. Conversely, Quinlan has beaten Aayla with telekinesis, concealed his Force signature, healed wounds, and controlled beasts. Again, I have no idea where the disparity lies. To me, they seem fairly even. Even if Qui-Gon somehow comes up on top in the end, it is only by a slight margin. Agen was better than Quinlan by more than that, clearly. So Qui-Gon still loses to Agen.
Was a fun discussion, MP. But I think we've made our points, and by continuing, we'd be going off on tangents.
I agree that we've essentially run the course of this debate, but since you were first to open, I should have the right to conclude my points; though they will be brief, and may not be address all the issues you've brought up. I will solely stick to the most important points as to why I think Jinn is > Agen Kolar.
THIS POST AND Intr3pid's POST ABOVE ARE THE FINAL POSTS FOR THIS DEBATE. PLEASE READ THESE BEFORE VOTING.
Final points and conclusions:
Agen Kolar only has two accolades/feats to his name that can be of any use against Qui-Gon Jinn. The first is that he is confirmed as one of the greatest Swordsmen the Jedi Order has ever produced; the second is that Kolar beat Quinlan Vos relatively quickly. However, these fall short because:
(a) Jinn is stated by a dozen sources to be one of the best swordsmen in the Order, and his peers (aka Jedi Masters and presumably friends like Plo Koon, who is one of the most powerful Jedi in the Order's history) regard him as one of the best pure swordsmen in the history of the Order. Not surprising, considering he was apprenticed to Dooku, who beat Windu in sparring when he was still a Jedi, and Windu is stated to be roughly on par with Yoda as of TPM in skill. At best, you could argue that Kolar's accolade =/= Jinn's, so it cancels out anyway. However, the real killer is that TPM Kenobi, who is < Jinn as a duelist, beat Plo Koon in a sparring match, and sparred with Windu and the other B-team member, Saesee Tiin, both of whom commented very highly on Kenobi's skill as a swordsman. Jinn therefore scales above that, placing him in the upper tier of duelists as of TPM. In all likeliness, if Kenobi could contend and impress Windu as of his TPM incarnation, than Jinn would probably be capable of matching Windu in a spar, but not beating him (as Windu has only been outsparred by Dooku and Yoda). Further reinforcing this is that Jinn is said to be "the most skilled of the Jedi Warriors." By an OOU source. This suggests that Jinn's technical skill with a lightsaber outmatches even Mace and possibly rivals Yoda's, though of course Mace is still > Jinn via overall combative ability.
(b) There is no reason to believe that Quinlan Vos would even be a match for Qui-Gon Jinn. For starters, Vos has never been acclaimed as Council tier, whereas Jinn has literally a dozen quotes saying as much, plus Mace Windu himself commented that Jinn had a mastery of the Force. Vos simply doesn't match that, and there's no reason to believe that Vos would be capable of overwhelming Jinn with TK, as Jinn's own combative use of the Force equals Vos' (as Intr3pid said himself). In terms of swordsmanship, as stated above Jinn is > most of the Jedi council with a lightsaber (probably only below Mace). To add to this though, Jinn is stated to be on a stomping level, >> against Anoon Bondara, a Jedi Master who is said to be one of best lightsaber instructors and fighters in the history of the Order, an accolade that Sora Bulq has. Bondara is also a Juyo specialist and a master of teras kasi - most likely =/= Sora Bulq who Vos could only beat with external help. Jinn is said to have been capable of beating Bondara in a short period of time. Going even further to solidify my point, and donning a rather YouTube-esque style point: Jinn has mastered not only Ataru, but Makashi, and numerous quotes from duels involving Qui-Gon always talk about his perfect footwork or exploitation of footwork to beat his opponents. Furthermore, in a duel with Xanatos, Jinn adapted his style in a confined space by using Makashi-esque jabs, indicating that he could effectively incorporate Makashi into his precise Ataru bladework. Vos on the other hand was taught some stuff by Dooku, but that could hardly be considered mastery, probably just introductory stuff. Jinn is just an overall clear superior to Vos.
So in conclusion, Jinn could > almost the entire Jedi Council as of TPM (at LEAST > Plo Koon) up to presumably Mace Windu (TPM), which therefore makes him at least a very high tier 7 duelist. Agen Kolar is at best a high tier 7 duelist as well, meaning they are both at a rough parity in terms of the pecking order of duelists in the Order. Jinn gains the advantage through his "mastery of the Force", better Force feats, mastery of Makashi (that can be adapted into his style at will as confirmed by his duel with Xanatos) and by virtue of the OOU quote confirming that, as of TPM, Jinn was more technically skilled than any other Jedi Warrior (with the presumable exception of Yoda) as a swordsman, though please remember that technical skill is only one aspect of overall combative ability.
For these reasons, Jinn would beat Kolar in a very long and competitive fight. It wouldn't be easy, but Jinn would come through in the end.
With that comes the official end of the debate. I will post the thread for public voting and feedback. Also, thanks Intr3pid for this debate, I had fun 🙂
Originally posted by RealistRacism
Thame Cerulian thought Dooku was > Yoda, Mace etc. Padawans tend to look at their Masters (and vice versa) with rose-tinted glasses on, so I wouldn't put too much stock into what Kenobi's saying there.
It's not my end-all point, but suggests rough parity with Mace/Yoda/Dooku. Anyway, it's supposed to gel with the rest of final points as an "add-on".