"Evolving" Robots Challenge Evolution

Started by dadudemon13 pages
Originally posted by chickenlover98
sorry, but public schools here do not focus on foreign countries much man. and it really is an excuse to be 15, at least in LA it is. and even when we learn about other countries we usually dont learn their currency. try coming here and watch the teachers. every teacher here pretty much fails. dont be suprised when you find out most people have F's or D's. all im saying is honestly, how the **** would i know what kind of currency they use in pakistan. we havent studied that country for a millisecond

I guess you were that "child left behind"?

google it you whiner! You know how to use the interwebz...get over it mr. links rupees! 🙄

Originally posted by dadudemon
I guess you were that "child left behind"?

google it you whiner! You know how to use the interwebz...get over it mr. links rupees! 🙄

dont get me started on george W. bush. the no child left behind system is flawed and teachs children more poorly than before. in fact all the teachers are fighting it. im not saying im stupid, im saying the system is flawed. we are not taught about other countries usually. and besides no offense to anyone, but pakistan hasnt made a gigantic mark in history. i9t isnt the first country we would learn about ne way

actually it has. the birthplace of sum of the most ancient{if not the most ancient} indus valley civilisation. the development of the most ancient advaced civilisation. the leading architecture and technology of the most olden times. the oldest relegion in the world{hinduism}-{this is along with india btw} . hmm, the mughal empire, prolly one of the greatest in the world ever. hmmmm,wars, culture, architecture, contributions to art and science in the dark ages of europe, atomic power of the world. well ltosa stuff. besides, the food here is AWESOME! the thing is, about as much has happened in pakistan as in india, historically, but india projects itself in an unreal and superfitial way so every1 outside it{specially in the western world} seems to think its sum place of wonderous mysticism and spirituality when actually its nuthing more than a shithole of corruption, unbeleiveable poverty and waste disposal problems + rigid caste syste, where most peopel only care about becoming like the materialistic west - kinda sad and ironic. its kinda like pakistan, only worse, in all those areas other than corruption.

infact{and this is without bias} pakistan has more cultural significance of the two, more old architectural and cultural triumphs which can be seen, better food, and MUCH better geography {infact, it is in many ways, one of the , if not THE most beutiful country in thw world in the northern areas, atleast geographically}. relegious extremis is the only problem but it is nowhere as overwhelming as the media makes it sound.

oh no wait, what was this thread about ? 😛

Originally posted by chickenlover98
dont get me started on george W. bush. the no child left behind system is flawed and teachs children more poorly than before. in fact all the teachers are fighting it. im not saying im stupid, im saying the system is flawed. we are not taught about other countries usually. and besides no offense to anyone, but pakistan hasnt made a gigantic mark in history. i9t isnt the first country we would learn about ne way

The fact that No Child Left Behind is insane is no excuse for not being able to Google the word "ruppes".

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
The fact that No Child Left Behind is insane is no excuse for not being able to Google the word "ruppes".

lol, true. i guess i didnt think about it.

Dongs, dong, dongs, fifty-two dongs.

^saint jingle dongs is among us.

Post # 1 of 3: Intro

To catch everyone up with what I'm about to post:

Ushome has been using this thread as an excuse to spread creationist propoganda, which is in no way against forum rules, but imo slightly underhanded because there's other places better suited for this. One of the main features behind his rebuttal of evolutionary theory is the idea that mutations cannot add information to the genome of an organism, only change existing information. The addition of information, apparently, is entered by God, though I don't think he has explicitly said this (since it's blatently untestable and unscientific).

I posted an article written by Richard Dawkins on this same problem when he was tricked into an interview with creationists. Dawkins provides the answer within his article, since he needed to clear his name after being falsely represented in a movie the creationist interviewers made. Ushome posted an article in rebuttal to Dawkins' own.

Now, since Dawkins doesn't respond to creationists as a general rule (he doesn't like lending credibility to their argument by even associating his well-known name with them, even in defiance of their beliefs), I shall be responding to the article, since a challenge was issued by ushome.

A couple things. One, this isn't for ushome's sake. His religion blinds him from rational debate too often for me to expect results. I am just put off by perversions of science and want to set it straight for those who are either uncertain about the issue or who know evolution is a fact but do not have the technical knowledge to refute such involved matters (this is one of the favorite ID arguments because it’s one of the most complex). Second, I’d like you to keep in mind that it doesn’t take a scientist to refute such religiously tainted junk science. I’m just a guy who has read about evolution, and hopefully I’ll show that just knowing the basics is enough to refute such unfounded claims. All it takes is a clear head that is free from religious bias.

Quotes from the article will be italicized. My responses will be in plain script.

Dawkins article: http://www.skeptics.com.au/articles/dawkins.htm
Rebuttal article from Casey Luskin: http://www.discovery.org/a/4278

Post #2 of 3: Analysis

Please read the above post first.

Excerpts from the Casey Luskin article:

In September, 2007, I posted a link to a YouTube video where Richard Dawkins was asked to explain the origin of genetic information, according to Darwinism. I also posted a link to Dawkins’ rebuttal to the video, where he purports to explain the origin of genetic information according to Darwinian evolution.
- Which is false. Dawkins explicitly says he didn’t respond to the question because the answer could not fit into a sound bite but required an extended period of time. Thus his article. Luskin claiming that he posted Dawkins answer is nothing more than an attempt to undermine him, since he did no such thing on video.

Dawkins writes, “In my anger I refused to discuss the question further, and told them to stop the camera.” Dawkins’ highly emotional response calls into question whether he is capable of addressing this issue objectively.
- Dawkins has been lied to and is being demanded to answer questions. Yet, to his credit, he finished the interview because he did agree to it. So he did not back down from his word, despite being lied to. Dawkins is on record as saying he will not debate ID advocates, so his quandary in the duplicitous interview is evident. I’m actually surprised he had the composure to continue. So this is yet another sad attempt by Luskin to knock his opponent’s credibility, not his intellectual position.

Before continuing, it should be noted that Luskin is on the payroll of The Discovery Institute, a group whose job it is to uphold ID. His very credentials make the argument suspect, since scientists have no stake in taking sides…objectivity is their profession, not a particular agenda. So it is in their best interests to report the facts as they see them. Their findings may promote one viewpoint over another, but they are not being paid to say one or the other, simply to report the facts. The same cannot be said for Luskin.

Still, if this is so, his argument should be porous. It is.

…anyway, on to the science (or lack thereof).

- I shall skip the first section of the article to get to what I believe to be the heart of the matter. In the first section, of both articles actually, they define ‘information’ to suit their particular needs. Semantics, really, even for Dawkins, since one can find a definition for it that suits opposite opinions quite easily. Neither seems more right than the other unless it can be backed by science.

- I shall attempt to paraphrase the main argument of Dawkins before posting Luskin’s rebuttal: Gene duplication accounts for increase in genome information. Genes can and do duplicate themselves. The majority of genetic information is vast amounts of duplicated material, commonly referred to as “junk” DNA (more on this later). Even Luskin doesn’t argue that they duplicate. But that leaves us with nothing but copies of the same gene. This is where random mutation comes in, because copying fidelity among genes isn’t 100%. Mutation, combined with natural selection and unfathomably long amounts of time, account for gene variation among the duplicated genes. Thus, the total information increases because you have a wide array of genes that, through natural selection, have been chosen because they promote survival. Luskin, of course, sees fault with this.

I now have 2 questions to ask of Darwinists who claim that the mechanism of gene duplication explains how Darwinian evolutionary processes can increase the information content in the genome:
(1) Does gene duplication increase the information content?
(2) Does gene duplication increase the information content?
Asking the question twice obviously does not double the meaningful information conveyed by the question. How many times would the question have to be duplicated before the meaningful information conveyed by the list of duplicated questions is twice that of the original question? The answer is that the mere duplication of a sentence does NOT increase the complex and specified information content in any meaningful way.

- This was answered in my synopsis of Dawkins point: That mutation and natural selection combine to foster new genes into successive generations. But the truly perplexing part about Luskin’s article is that he provides the same answer later on in his article. So what, if anything, was the point of the quotation I posted (he devotes even more time to this point)?? There isn’t one, except to try to pick battles he knows he can win. It amounts to a moot point, because it means nothing in the article, but to an untrained eye it looks like a victory in the ID column.

Darwinists laud the mechanism of gene duplication because they claim it shows how one copy of a gene can perform the original function, freeing up the other copy to mutate, evolve, and acquire a new function. But the new genetic information must somehow be generated during that subsequent evolution of the gene. To explain how Darwinian processes can generate new and meaningful genetic information, Darwinists must provide a detailed account of how a duplicate copy of a gene can evolve into an entirely new gene. But ask Darwinists for details as to how the duplicate copy then starts to perform some new function, and you probably won’t get any.
- Here’s the answer I was talking about. Except he has an ultimatum for Darwinists: they must show precisely how one gene becomes another very different gene, step by step, before they can be believed. Before responding to this I feel it is important to include his full argument.

Yet the crucial question that must be answered by the gene duplication mechanism is, exactly how does the duplicate copy acquire an entirely new function? Stephen Meyer explains in Proceedings of the Biological Society of Washington that it is difficult to imagine how duplicated genes acquire new functions since they must successfully undergo “neutral evolution” and traverse a random walk in order to acquire a new function:
- The crux of this point is that the likelihood of a gene incurring numerous random mutations, surviving each, and eventually having a new function is extremely small. And in this much, he is right. But he is too narrow-sighted to realize the flaw of his logic: he is working with too short a timeframe. Imagine a gene duplicating itself numerous times, then a certain percentage of those genes mutate every generation and make more duplicates. Pretty soon you have a LOT of variation, without many generations. Granted, early in the evolutionary process, most of the host organisms will die without reproducing. But a certain percentage will survive because the mutations will be advantageous or at least neutral in survival terms. Then add the hundreds of millions of years upon which evolution is founded, and it becomes more preposterous to think that complexity wouldn’t arise via natural selection.

Rather than giving a step-by-step mutational account of how a duplicated gene acquires a new function, Dawkins’ article substitutes bland evidence of sequence identity between different genes as evidence for Darwinian evolution by gene duplication. Dawkins gives the example of the evolution of various globin genes that he claims arose via gene duplication. His evidence is that “[c]areful letter-by-letter analysis shows that these different kinds of globin genes are literally cousins of each other, literally members of a family.” Of course the “[c]areful letter-by-letter analysis” simply means finding amino acid sequences that are similar or identical between two different proteins. David Swift explains that such claims of relationship “are inferred solely on the basis of assuming a common ancestry and then deriving a route of polypeptide evolution, typically the most parsimonious one, to fit the known present day amino acid sequences and consistent with the observed pattern of conserved amino acids.”
- Here is Dawkins backing his point by showing similarity among variant genes. We know, for example, that all animals, and thus gene pools, are technically “cousins” because we can trace back to a common ancestor. For many of these ancestors, we have fossil records. So we don’t assume ancestry, as Luskin says. We prove it with empirical evidence, then work from that basis. Once again, many ID’ists like demanding complete fossil records before they believe this, which (of course) we do not have and will never have due to the rarity of fossils. But partial records, radio-carbon dating techniques, and DNA analysis of these animals are usually enough for rational individuals.

Part #2 Cont.

Returning to the topic of junk DNA (part of the justification for gene duplication accounting for complexity, because we have large amounts of duplicated genes).
Luskin: Dawkins' article has other problems. He writes that “most of the capacity of the genome of any animal is not used to store useful information.” This is another good example demonstrating how Neo-Darwinism led may scientists to wrongly believe that non-coding DNA was largely junk. Dawkins’ statement is directly refuted by the findings of recent studies, which the Washington Post reported that scientists have now found that “the vast majority of the 3 billion ‘letters’ of the human genetic code are busily toiling at an array of previously invisible tasks.” That strikes a fatal blow to Dawkins’ argument:
- While it may strike a “fatal blow” to Dawkins position on junk DNA (written prior to the findings Luskin cites), it does nothing to shatter his central argument. In fact, this is simply off-topic, yet Luskin enjoys acting like it lends his argument more force. All it (possibly) shows is that “junk” DNA may have purpose in an organism, rather than simply existing within the genome with no specific purpose. First, he doesn’t show that all “junk” DNA has function. Some that was previously thought to have no function, does. Great, but that doesn’t equal correlation for all junk DNA, which, again, makes up the majority of our genome. There’s a lot to account for. Second, while this may make it even slightly more difficult for organisms to exist, it once again comes nowhere near proving that organisms could never exist via evolutionary processes, given sufficient time.

...

- It is also good to point out that Luskin wants to see purpose at each level of mutation. The presence of junk DNA, not all accounted for in terms of function, suggests that perhaps they don't always need a function. But even assuming they do, intermediate levels of mutation can and do have function. For example, a common ID argument is "An eye is not useful unless it is complete. It could not have evolved because it would have had to evolve simultaneously to become an eye. Step by step mutation could not have happened because it is not functional until there is sight." This is a great example of the "always needs function" argument they make. yet, in this instance there IS always function. Eyes began as light-sensitive patches of skin that helped organisms detect light/dark, move around, and eventually identify threats. Partially mutated eyes are indeed functional, and it is easy to see how they were built up to their current complexity, because increased eyesight is advantageous in a survival sense.

Of course, not all examples are as cohesive as the eye. But they don't need to be, because it shows that it is possible. Some will fail because of the difficulty of retaining function and adapting in advantageous ways over successive generations. But some will succeed, and even if its a vast minority, it proves the point.

Post #3 of 3: The Final Point

I am done with the scientific rebuttal of the argument. Hopefully it is obvious that, if not 100% proven, the case for gene duplication accounting for genome complexity is well defended and a very reasonable position.

I turn now to simple logic, and the biggest foe facing ID advocates.

Luskin: Thus, in order for Darwinists to convince me that Darwinian evolution can produce new information, at minimum I need to see a step-by-step mutational account of how they can take the sentence:
“METHINKSDAWKINSDOTHPROTESTTOOMUCH”
and evolve it into:
“BUTIMSUREDAWKINSBELIEVESHEISRIGHT”
by changing the first sentence one letter at a time, and having it always retain some comprehensible English meaning along each small step of its evolution.

- Notice a trend with his chief questions regarding evolution? He’s demanding things. Luskin, apparently, wouldn’t be appeased until we tracked tens of thousands of generations of an animal and showed how a specific strand of DNA became another. We have observed mutation and variation over successive generations in animals whose lifespans are very short. But for new “useful” genetic code to arise via natural selection would take even longer.

So no, we can’t observe it currently. That admission is a death blow to the theory, right? Wrong.

You know what the one thing was that I could not find in Luskin’s article? An argument for ID, rather than against evolution. An alternative theory. Evidence for a belief in the creator that presumably affects evolution. Means by which we could begin to test for such non-evolutionary affects. ANYTHING!!

But wait, he offers us this:
Additionally, Richard Dawkins’ article admits that “DNA carries information in a very computer-like way, and we can measure the genome's capacity in bits too, if we wish.” That’s an interesting analogy, reminiscent of the design overtones of Dawkins concession elsewhere that “[t]he machine code of the genes is uncannily computer-like. Apart from differences in jargon, the pages of a molecular biology journal might be interchanged with those of a computer engineering journal.” (Richard Dawkins, River Out of Eden: A Darwinian View of Life, pg. 17 (New York: Basic Books, 1995).) Of course, Dawkins believes that the processes of random mutation and unguided selection ultimately built “[t]he machine code of the genes” and made it “uncannily computer-like.” But I do not think a scientist is unjustified in reasoning that in our experience, machine codes and computers only derive from intelligence.
- Let me word the argument in a way that is exactly the same, but less flattering to ID’ists. “Dawkins says DNA is very computer-like. Humans build computers, so some intelligence must have built us, right?” He takes an analogy and makes it literal to suit his purpose. Of course, to the religious slant, this sounds fine, except that there’s the pesky thing called evolution to deal with. And for some reason, ID’ists think that if they tear down evolution, their “theory” (I use the term loosely) wins by default. When, in fact, even if evolution is wrong, there’s still no reason to believe ID because it lacks any evidence at all. None. Ziltch. Kaput. A new reasonable theory could replace it, but certainly not one that has nothing backing it except “

- So, sticking with that train of thought, let’s assume Luskin is right, and current evolutionary theory can’t account for “macroevolution” as ushome called it. Btw, he delighted in pointing out a Darwinist coined the term macroevolution. Pointless, really, especially given the era (the 20’s, well before modern technology revolutionized our understanding of the world). Anyway, even if we assume Luskin is correct about this (he’s not, as I showed), it doesn’t invalidate evolution as a whole, which is currently the best explanation for life as we know it. It may need refinement, and will continue to be refined and improved (probably to appease irrational religious fanatics, if nothing else), but saying “it’s not 100% right at this moment” does not mean “it’s actually 0% right.” To use an analogy, it would be like flat-earth believers saying “science says that the earth isn’t perfectly round, so we’re right.” In fact, the earth is slightly oblong, not round, so the first part of their argument is correct, but certainly not the latter.

- And if evolution does indeed need tweaking, for God’s sake let’s have it refined through legitimate scientific inquiry, not religious ranting that amounts to nothing except paranoia at the prospect that evolution could question their strongly-held beliefs.

- As before, this isn’t for ushome’s sake, who I’m a bit annoyed has even made me go to such lengths to refute his persistent tactics. This is for anyone interested in evolution, or who needed to see justification for evolutionary theory on these matters (or arguments against ID).

^agree 100%. i find it rather funny though that creationists who are PAYED to do this stuff are not even versed enough in the subject to call out any REAL arguments hampering traditional macroevolution{i.e, the one i TRIED to convey a page or two back concerning alleales/stop codons/multiple tranlations required before a phenotype is produced}.
no, theyd rather stick to sumthing silly like "information" in the genome{the definition to which they themselves wont be able to give u as they constantly mix up INFORMATION with observable and non harmful change in the entire GENE/phenotype}. its a FACT that new information is added every time a minor or major mutations takes place. otherwise, the world wud be RID OF CANCER!

just silly. anyhow, ur right, just because traditional evolution MIGHT not account for all phenomenon{and the above example isnt even an ARGUMENT against the thing} doesnt mean a very specific form of I.D that the other purson proposes, is.

I'm pretty sure that ushomefree is just trolling.

Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
I'm pretty sure that ushomefree is just trolling.

We figured that one out. 😉

Too long for me to read.

Originally posted by JackieCD
Too long for me to read.

I tried to be a brief as possible. 😂

Originally posted by DigiMark007
[b]Post #3 of 3: The Final Point

I am done with the scientific rebuttal of the argument. Hopefully it is obvious that, if not 100% proven, the case for gene duplication accounting for genome complexity is well defended and a very reasonable position.

I turn now to simple logic, and the biggest foe facing ID advocates.

Luskin: Thus, in order for Darwinists to convince me that Darwinian evolution can produce new information, at minimum I need to see a step-by-step mutational account of how they can take the sentence:
“METHINKSDAWKINSDOTHPROTESTTOOMUCH”
and evolve it into:
“BUTIMSUREDAWKINSBELIEVESHEISRIGHT”
by changing the first sentence one letter at a time, and having it always retain some comprehensible English meaning along each small step of its evolution.

- Notice a trend with his chief questions regarding evolution? He’s demanding things. Luskin, apparently, wouldn’t be appeased until we tracked tens of thousands of generations of an animal and showed how a specific strand of DNA became another. We have observed mutation and variation over successive generations in animals whose lifespans are very short. But for new “useful” genetic code to arise via natural selection would take even longer.

So no, we can’t observe it currently. That admission is a death blow to the theory, right? Wrong.

You know what the one thing was that I could not find in Luskin’s article? An argument for ID, rather than against evolution. An alternative theory. Evidence for a belief in the creator that presumably affects evolution. Means by which we could begin to test for such non-evolutionary affects. ANYTHING!!

But wait, he offers us this:
Additionally, Richard Dawkins’ article admits that “DNA carries information in a very computer-like way, and we can measure the genome's capacity in bits too, if we wish.” That’s an interesting analogy, reminiscent of the design overtones of Dawkins concession elsewhere that “[t]he machine code of the genes is uncannily computer-like. Apart from differences in jargon, the pages of a molecular biology journal might be interchanged with those of a computer engineering journal.” (Richard Dawkins, River Out of Eden: A Darwinian View of Life, pg. 17 (New York: Basic Books, 1995).) Of course, Dawkins believes that the processes of random mutation and unguided selection ultimately built “[t]he machine code of the genes” and made it “uncannily computer-like.” But I do not think a scientist is unjustified in reasoning that in our experience, machine codes and computers only derive from intelligence.
- Let me word the argument in a way that is exactly the same, but less flattering to ID’ists. “Dawkins says DNA is very computer-like. Humans build computers, so some intelligence must have built us, right?” He takes an analogy and makes it literal to suit his purpose. Of course, to the religious slant, this sounds fine, except that there’s the pesky thing called evolution to deal with. And for some reason, ID’ists think that if they tear down evolution, their “theory” (I use the term loosely) wins by default. When, in fact, even if evolution is wrong, there’s still no reason to believe ID because it lacks any evidence at all. None. Ziltch. Kaput. A new reasonable theory could replace it, but certainly not one that has nothing backing it except “

- So, sticking with that train of thought, let’s assume Luskin is right, and current evolutionary theory can’t account for “macroevolution” as ushome called it. Btw, he delighted in pointing out a Darwinist coined the term macroevolution. Pointless, really, especially given the era (the 20’s, well before modern technology revolutionized our understanding of the world). Anyway, even if we assume Luskin is correct about this (he’s not, as I showed), it doesn’t invalidate evolution as a whole, which is currently the best explanation for life as we know it. It may need refinement, and will continue to be refined and improved (probably to appease irrational religious fanatics, if nothing else), but saying “it’s not 100% right at this moment” does not mean “it’s actually 0% right.” To use an analogy, it would be like flat-earth believers saying “science says that the earth isn’t perfectly round, so we’re right.” In fact, the earth is slightly oblong, not round, so the first part of their argument is correct, but certainly not the latter.

- And if evolution does indeed need tweaking, for God’s sake let’s have it refined through legitimate scientific inquiry, not religious ranting that amounts to nothing except paranoia at the prospect that evolution could question their strongly-held beliefs.

- As before, this isn’t for ushome’s sake, who I’m a bit annoyed has even made me go to such lengths to refute his persistent tactics. This is for anyone interested in evolution, or who needed to see justification for evolutionary theory on these matters (or arguments against ID). [/B]

if im ever in court, can you be my lawyer?

😂

Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
I'm pretty sure that ushomefree is just trolling.

True, which is why I specified that my response was not intended for him, because I don't expect any changes in his attitude and tactics. But if enough people see the rebuttal, either as a justification for evolution, or just a crippling knock against ID, it will do some good.

Originally posted by chickenlover98
if im ever in court, can you be my lawyer?

Sure.

😎

...though I don't know the first thing about law. Somehow I doubt internet debating skills translate directly to the courtroom...but I guess one can hope.

tinkabear

Originally posted by DigiMark007
True, which is why I specified that my response was not intended for him, because I don't expect any changes in his attitude and tactics. But if enough people see the rebuttal, either as a justification for evolution, or just a crippling knock against ID, it will do some good.

Sure.

😎

...though I don't know the first thing about law. Somehow I doubt internet debating skills translate directly to the courtroom...but I guess one can hope.

tinkabear

you should become a lawyer then. your a VERY good debater, and you'd do very well. you provide very good arguments, word them well and substantiate them much better than pretty much anyone else in the forum, although leonheartmm and shaky come close. and when you do become a lawyer, ima call you and higher u.