Originally posted by The Merchant
TBH Darth Vader going by several showings can be able to replicate Tiths feats, such as withstanding orbital bombardment. He did withstand Starkillers amped Force Lightning which was capable of charging a cannon to the point it split a star destroyer in half. He also smashed apart Aluminized densecris, a material that is supposed to be unbreakable according to Imperial Scientists, which would at least make it tougher than Phrik and durasteel alloys, material strong enough to withstand direct hits from turbolaser blasts and even the explosion of a planet in the case with Phrik.
That Starkiller's feat is a useless analogy. Starkiller's Force lightning isn't that potent. It just activated that device which in turn split the capital ship. This is like he activated a nuke and its subsequent explosion did the rest.
Barsen'thor plowed through virtually indestructible stuff (of Rakatan origin) and he cannot hope to contend with Tyth on his own. So examples like that do not hold.
Originally posted by SunRazer
1. Valkorion being better than Palpatine in some areas doesn't mean he has to be better in virtually everything as you try to make him out to be. You can't even accept the Emperor being more durable than Valkorion. Pathetic.2. First, blaster bolts can penetrate that level of armouring. Secondly, again, just because they can put the armour inside the clothing doesn't mean that Palpatine did. Prove that Palpatine did, or it's an invalid point. You can't ask me to prove a negative by asking me to prove that Palpatine didn't. Nobody ever proves a negative in debates; if you propose something, the burden of proof is on you.
3. If it's removed from Wookieepedia, that's probably because it was unsourced and determined to be made up. Indeed, I have read pretty much all of Palpatine's sources and I don't recall that anyway. Bacta doesn't heal spiritual wounds either, which only makes it more suspicious.
Regardless, the comment in BoS is ambiguous (nearly killing someone can mean a near-miss, not inflicting mortal injuries) and it could've taken place early on in Palpatine's apprenticeship, or some other such time. We don't know for sure.
Durability? Vaylin (chained) tanked blaster bolts. I suppose she is more durable than Valkorion? Do keep in mind that Valkorion could conjure a protection bubble much like Vaylin and Revan. How will you measure durability here?
2. Depends on the material. Weight is not a good measure of protection in itself.
I am supposed to substantiate a supposition? This single remark has invoked so much reaction that it is a bit funny. You are free to counter my supposition with evidence.
3. I do not buy that explanation. I have experienced edit-wars there first-hand. I will try to identify the source.
4. I will dig into this matter further and let you know.
Follow-up to point one above.
I believe that Valkorion stands a good chance at overwhelming Palpatine in a contest of Force powers because the former had relatively greater exposure to external threats in person, developed relevant countermeasures in response and continued to develop and/or experiment with new techniques to subjugate potential adversaries with passage of time.
1. Nobody said anything about invincibility, weaknesses or anything of the sort. This is just that you're making very conspicuous efforts to undermine evidence for one side because you support the other. If you would allow me to present evidence for Palpatine without making "suppositions" to undermine their value, you'd come off looking a little less partisan.
I'm not talking about defensive Force powers which will obviously negate a blaster bolt; I'm talking about actually getting hit by a blaster bolt and suffering no ill effects.
2. My counter-evidence is the fact that not one source lists that Palpatine has armouring under his cloth. If you believe there is armour underneath, prove it. "Suppositions" are meaningless. I can "suppose" that you're a three-headed alien with forty-seven feet and artichoke hands as well. That's completely meaningless unless I have proof. If you make a claim, the burden of proof is yours, otherwise the opposition is free to dismiss your "suppositions", as I'll do here until I see some evidence on your end. That's debating 101.
3/4. I'll wait for source material.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Follow-up to point one above.I believe that Valkorion stands a good chance at overwhelming Palpatine in a contest of Force powers because the former had relatively greater exposure to external threats in person, developed relevant countermeasures in response and continued to develop and/or experiment with new techniques to subjugate potential adversaries with passage of time.
How is Valkorion more exposed to threats in person? They were both of the scholarly sort but at least Sidious' training involved physical and martial brutality, lightsaber training, fighting armies, etc.
Palpatine's actually gone out of his way to deal with threats (The Lawless, Son of Dathomir, Lords of the Sith, etc.) whereas similar scenarios can hardly be cited on Vitiate's part. He's always tried to deal with things "the safe way" ie. possessing vessels or some such. His only recorded battles are when he's been forced to fight; when the fight's actually been brought to him. Palpatine has at least brought the fight to others.
That's forgoing Vitiate's abysmal record in combat situations as well; impaling himself on other people's lightsaber, having complete tunnel vision in fights (don't make the comparison with Palpatine and Vader; Palpatine wasn't actually fighting Vader and rightfully wasn't expecting any opposition from him), being incapable of responding to his own attacks being sent back at him, etc. Sidious isn't perfect but he's definitely shown better.
The last two things you said are applicable to Palpatine also.
Originally posted by SunRazer
How is Valkorion more exposed to threats in person? They were both of the scholarly sort but at least Sidious' training involved physical and martial brutality, lightsaber training, fighting armies, etc.Palpatine's actually gone out of his way to deal with threats (The Lawless, Son of Dathomir, Lords of the Sith, etc.) whereas similar scenarios can hardly be cited on Vitiate's part. He's always tried to deal with things "the safe way" ie. possessing Children or some such. His only recorded battles are when he's been forced to fight; when the fight's actually been brought to him. Palpatine has at least brought the fight to others.
That's forgoing Vitiate's abysmal record; impaling himself on other people's lightsaber, having complete tunnel vision in fights (don't make the comparison with Palpatine and Vader; Palpatine wasn't actually fighting Vader and rightfully wasn't expecting any opposition from him).
The last two things you said are applicable to Palpatine also.
NEXT;
Ruling over a vast Sith Empire for 1000 years straight does not counts in your opinion? It is not possible to hold the throne in a Sith Empire for that long due to the very nature of Sith philosophy that encourages competition and politics of scheming. At one point, an entire Dark Council decided to take its chances with Vitiate. A threat like that would motivate a lesser foe to flee for safety. Vitiate learned from such developments and developed his personal powerbase to increase his safeguards against external threats of all kinds. It makes perfect sense because you cannot stop thousands of Sith from conspiring against you for indefinite period.
NEXT;
As if rebellious Sith were not enough, Jedi entered the picture and attempted to assassinate Vitiate in person at different points in time. Vitiate learned valuable lessons from such encounters as well, honing his defensive abilities further and ways to cheat death.
NEXT;
The Jedi eventually managed to stop Vitiate's plan of consuming the galaxy and strike him down on Dromund Kaas. Vitiate retreated to Yavin IV to recover from the nearly fatal blow. However, as soon as he regained his strength to a certain extent, he went on the offensive and proceeded to devastate Ziost - sending a message to both Jedi and Sith that he means business and will exterminate them eventually.
NEXT;
Even in the Empire of Zakuul, Arcann and Vaylin were conspiring against Vitiate. Arcann made his move as soon as the Outlander was nabbed. Vaylin was waiting to unchain herself.
---
Vitiate spent much of his life contending with enemies (internal and external). He had enjoyed intervals of peace in-between but they would not last.
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You tend to overlook the fact that Vitiate had suffered a significant setback earlier and his frustation seemingly impaired his judgement. He attempted to counter Hero of Tython and his allies with Sith Sorcery earlier but this strategy didn't work. I get the impression that Vitiate decided to give-up and deliberately exposed himself to Hero of Tython so he may capitalize and strike him down. Taking this one-time development at face value is hilarious and misguided.
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Tunnel vision? A large number of characters are guilty of it including Darth Malgus and Meetra Surik. And the likelihood of it increases in a fight against a Strike Team.
Sorry but you cannot make an excuse of Palpatine's case of tunnel vision. He failed to consider the fact that Darth Vader is a Sith and might look for an opportunity to kill him. Point is that nobody has infallible judgement non-stop. Characters have a personality and emotions that may impair judgement at times.
Vitiate has his share of brilliant performances in the battlefield. It is silly to ignore them.
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Palpatine was also innovating with passage of time but he advanced in different areas/aspects in accordance with his experiences and mindset. I don't think Force Storm is a practical option for close-quarters combat or battlefield in general, for example. It is more like a tool for spreading fear with a display of destruction on mass-scale from safe distance.
Valkorion's advances are visible in mostly combat-applicable areas/aspects and battlefield scenarios.
Follow-up from the last point:
1. Telepathy is a smart method of subjugating an opponent from a safe distance. Few expect it to be a decisive weapon in the battlefield. Conventional wisdom is that Telepathy is mostly effective against the weak/vulnerable subjects. However, an opponent is in for a rude awakening when he confronts Valkorion for the first time, learning a lesson the hard way but it is too late at that point.
2. Force Lightning is a decent method of subjugating an opponent from a safe distance. Should Valkorion entrap you with this power, I would like to see who has the strength to walk-out from it unscathed. Doom is inevitable.
3. Sith Sorcery is an innovative spectrum to consider, to overwhelm an opponent decisively. So many variables in this case. Valkorion packs considerable surprises in this area. Some of his acts/attacks can be seen as constituting elements of Sith Sorcery.
4. Force Drain powers tend to be game-changer in the battlefield. Valkorion proved this on Ziost.
5. Teleportation is an option. Valkorion seems to have utilized this talent on Yavin IV to jump to Ziost or was it a Force Storm?
6. Valkorion also honed his defenses with passage of time. Most notable improvement was in the realm of defenses against lightsaber strikes at point blank range.
7. If you are struck down or your corporeal vessel is destroyed? No problem; hop in another and strike back. Heck, surprise the enemy in intangible form.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Valkorion began to challenge his adversaries and subjugating lands in proactive manner during childhood. Such ventures set him on the path of collision course with powerful Lord Dramath himself and we know what happened. Valkorion literally earned the title of Lord Vitiate from Emperor Marka Ragnos on the basis of his exploits on Medriaas without formal training at the age of 13. That is something.
His exploits on Medriaas are extremely vague and cannot be passed off as a genuine combat showing with any degree of certainty. But even provided that we place it on his resume, it hardly constitutes superiority to Palpatine's record. Subjugating peasants is impressive for Vitiate's age but in no way compares to tangling with some of the greatest Jedi and Dark Jedi to date.
NEXT;Ruling over a vast Sith Empire for 1000 years straight does not counts in your opinion? It is not possible to hold the throne in a Sith Empire for that long due to the very nature of Sith philosophy that encourages competition and politics of scheming. At one point, an entire Dark Council decided to take its chances with Vitiate. A threat like that would motivate a lesser foe to flee for safety. Vitiate learned from such developments and developed his personal powerbase to increase his safeguards against external threats of all kinds. It makes perfect sense because you cannot stop thousands of Sith from conspiring against you for indefinite period.
Nowhere is Vitiate facing a personal challenge here. He spent the millennium as a publicly deified Emperor who never once made a public appearance and held audiences only on his own terms. The Dark Council insurrections were the only times when he was challenged, and Vitiate had the luxury of dealing with them on his own terms. In no way does this constitute evidence of "greater exposure to threats in person".
Compare that to Palpatine fighting Talzin and Maul on their terms rather than his own in SoD #4, literally traveling to Talzin's bastion of power to fight her. Vitiate's too scared to fight anyone on their terms; it's always on his own terms or at least on his home turf.
NEXT;As if rebellious Sith were not enough, Jedi entered the picture and attempted to assassinate Vitiate in person at different points in time. Vitiate learned valuable lessons from such encounters as well, honing his defensive abilities further and ways to cheat death.
Yep. We've got the fight in the Revan novel, where Vitiate performed rather poorly for someone who was so much more powerful than his enemies, and we've got the TOR Strike Team fight. And both fights took place on his home turf, on his terms.
Note that in the novel fight, he couldn't even respond to Revan batting his Lightning back at him; even Dooku knew how to deflect his own Lightning when it came back to him. That's how poorly prepared for combat novel Vitiate was. I agree that Valkorion might not be privy to similar errors, but there's absolutely nothing of praise to be said about Vitiate's fight with Revan. He was far more powerful and the engagement could have been so much easier, except for Vitiate's own combative inadequacies which dragged the fight out and made it closer.
NEXT;The Jedi eventually managed to stop Vitiate's plan of consuming the galaxy and strike him down on Dromund Kaas. Vitiate retreated to Yavin IV to recover from the nearly fatal blow. However, as soon as he regained his strength to a certain extent, he went on the offensive and proceeded to devastate Ziost - sending a message to both Jedi and Sith that he means business and will exterminate them eventually.
How is that a personal combat situation? Out of all of this, the only part where he engaged in personal combat was against the HoT on DK, which was again on his home turf. And Vitiate ended up walking into the HoT's lightsaber. Rather abysmal, wouldn't you agree?
NEXT;Even in the Empire of Zakuul, Arcann and Vaylin were conspiring against Vitiate. Arcann made his move as soon as the Outlander was nabbed. Vaylin was waiting to unchain herself.
I'll remind you that Arcann's move was successful; Vitiate died. What is so impressive about that?
Vitiate spent much of his life contending with enemies (internal and external). He had enjoyed intervals of peace in-between but they would not last.You tend to overlook the fact that Vitiate had suffered a significant setback earlier and his frustation seemingly impaired his judgement. He attempted to counter Hero of Tython and his allies with Sith Sorcery earlier but this strategy didn't work. I get the impression that Vitiate decided to give-up and deliberately exposed himself to Hero of Tython so he may capitalize and strike him down. Taking this one-time development at face value is hilarious and misguided.
I'm not holding Vitiate's failure with the ritual against him; I'm talking about him literally walking into the HoT's lightsaber, which is as poor a showing of a combatant as you can get.
As for Vitiate giving up and having suicidal thoughts, proof? Seems like you're taking the easy way out instead of owning up.
Tunnel vision? A large number of characters are guilty of it including Darth Malgus and Meetra Surik. And the likelihood of it increases in a fight against a Strike Team.Sorry but you cannot make an excuse of Palpatine's case of tunnel vision. He failed to consider the fact that Darth Vader is a Sith and might look for an opportunity to kill him. Point is that nobody has infallible judgement non-stop. Characters have a personality and emotions that may impair judgement at times.
Vitiate has his share of brilliant performances in the battlefield. It is silly to ignore them.
Nope. Malgus' "tunnel vision" was being rushed by a third party when he was completely locked into battle with Satele Shan and had no way out. You see him turning before Jace Malcon hit him; he just couldn't get out of his fight with Satele. Whereas Vitiate had Revan completely at his mercy and simply tunnel visioned; he never even saw the Saber Throw coming. That was on a dark side nexus as well.
Meetra and Palpatine were not tunnel visioned, but simply expecting Scourge and Vader to be their allies, not their enemies. Compare that to Valkorion, who knew full well that the Outlander was an enemy and literally witnessed Arcann cut the Outlander's handcuffs, yet proceeded to have his back turned the Outlander the entire time he was fighting Arcann, resulting in him getting impaled/shot in the back. Textbook case of tunnel vision again.
Palpatine is at least alert against people that he knows are his enemies. I mean, compare this to this. Sure, one came from behind and the other came from in front, but at least Palpatine is clearly alert and ready to draw his blade at a moment's notice. He knows Starkiller could potentially lash out at him, so he's guarded against that. By contrast, Valkorion completely forgets about the Outlander and keeps talking to Arcann after defeating him instead of switching his target to the Outlander.
Palpatine was also innovating with passage of time but he advanced in different areas/aspects in accordance with his experiences and mindset. I don't think Force Storm is a practical option for close-quarters combat or battlefield in general, for example. It is more like a tool for spreading fear with a display of destruction on mass-scale from safe distance.Valkorion's advances are visible in mostly combat-applicable areas/aspects and battlefield scenarios.
Vitiate's chief advancement is learning Essence Transfer as a safeguard against personal assassination. And it's nice that he finally learned Force Deflection but as we see in both JK Act III and KotFE Chapter 1, he is still prone to rookiee combative errors. He hasn't advanced much there.
Though I fail to see what advancements Vitiate has made that Palpatine hasn't, but I suppose that's the focus of your next post which I'll address shortly.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Follow-up from the last point:1. Telepathy is a smart method of subjugating an opponent from a safe distance. Few expect it to be a decisive weapon in the battlefield. Conventional wisdom is that Telepathy is mostly effective against the weak/vulnerable subjects. However, an opponent is in for a rude awakening when he confronts Valkorion for the first time, learning a lesson the hard way but it is too late at that point.
2. Force Lightning is a decent method of subjugating an opponent from a safe distance. Should Valkorion entrap you with this power, I would like to see who has the strength to walk-out from it unscathed. Doom is inevitable.
3. Sith Sorcery is an innovative spectrum to consider, to overwhelm an opponent decisively. So many variables in this case. Valkorion packs considerable surprises in this area. Some of his acts/attacks can be seen as constituting elements of Sith Sorcery.
4. Force Drain powers tend to be game-changer in the battlefield. Valkorion proved this on Ziost.
5. Teleportation is an option. Valkorion seems to have utilized this talent on Yavin IV to jump to Ziost or was it a Force Storm?
6. Valkorion also honed his defenses with passage of time. Most notable improvement was in the realm of defenses against lightsaber strikes at point blank range.
7. If you are struck down or your corporeal vessel is destroyed? No problem; hop in another and strike back. Heck, surprise the enemy in intangible form.
1. Palpatine has this as well, not to mention that Vitiate has only ever attempted it in battle once, and that was against Revan with the luxury of distance and a dark side nexus. Vitiate didn't even attempt TP against the strike team in JK Act II until he already defeated them. I fail to see how this will matter here.
2. Palpatine has this as well...
3. What displays of Sorcery has Vitiate ever shown in a fight? Palpatine has this as well.
4. Palpatine has this as well. Valkorion's Ziost incident clearly isn't applicable to a one-on-one fight, certainly not anymore than Palpatine's Storms are.
5. It wasn't a Storm because nothing else appeared to be affected. Incorporeal spirits can instantly teleport from one dark side nexus to another (see Freedon Nadd in TotJ). That's irrelevant to a combat scenario. Valkorion hasn't shown the power to teleport in the flesh.
6. I'll give you that. Though of course Palpatine knows Deflection as well, and whilst we've never seen him display it against a lightsaber blade, it's not exactly out of the bounds of imagination to perceive him doing so. Not that it's necessary, given that he can disarm people in an instant with Lightning and blow up their lightsabers with a gesture.
7. Yeah, again, Palpatine has this as well and has shown it.
So really, Palpatine has access to all of these as well as Valkorion, and most of these aren't even relevant to a one-on-one battle.
1/3
Originally posted by SunRazer
His exploits on Medriaas are extremely vague and cannot be passed off as a genuine combat showing with any degree of certainty. But even provided that we place it on his resume, it hardly constitutes superiority to Palpatine's record. Subjugating peasants is impressive for Vitiate's age but in no way compares to tangling with some of the greatest Jedi and Dark Jedi to date.
Vitiate have contended with adversaries (perceived and otherwise) since childhood. He killed his parents first but this was only the beginning. He eliminated a large number of individuals/rivals afterwards and his most notable victory was against Lord Dramath (a powerful Sith Lord) at the age of 10. However, Vitiate's systematic purge continued till he consolidated his gains on Medriaas and became its undisputed ruler; he was just 13 years old at this point.
Palpatine does not have childhood experiences like that; he contended with worthy opponents at a much later stage of his life, and he received extensive tutoring in combat and ways of the Force before that.
Vitiate - in contrast - did not had any formal training during the course of his conquest of Medriaas but he still managed to smoke Sith left and right (during). What conclusion should I draw from this? Vitiate is smarter than you give him credit for.
Palpatine was a product of Rule of Two; a philosophy grounded on experiences of Sith in the past that encouraged its adherents to be prepared for any eventuality and hone their combat skills to perfection.
Vitiate's growth took a different course; he experienced a vastly different set of circumstances, took more interest in scholarly endeavors and his experiences shaped his progression accordingly. Nonetheless, his exploits on Medriaas are nothing short of amazing given his age and lack of formal training at that point in time.
Originally posted by SunRazer
Nowhere is Vitiate facing a personal challenge here. He spent the millennium as a publicly deified Emperor who never once made a public appearance and held audiences only on his own terms. The Dark Council insurrections were the only times when he was challenged, and Vitiate had the luxury of dealing with them on his own terms. In no way does this constitute evidence of "greater exposure to threats in person".
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Glory and reputation does not precludes challenge to rule. Vitiate might have commanded great respect from his subjects on average but core principles of Sith philosophy were the same. Sith respect power, not any individual; Vitiate was a role model for them in this regard. However, politics of scheming and backstabbing were norm. Kaggath system was also there, for those who demanded a fair contest with an opponent of any rank (Emperor included).
There are some solid reasons for Vitiate lasting that long on the throne. Darth Nyriss elaborated one of them:
"The Emperor has the ability to dominate and enslave the minds of those who serve him," she explained. "It's one of the reasons he has ruled for so long. Those that are transformed become fanatical zealots who live to serve; they are not capable of betraying him."
Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan
Vitiate dominated the minds of his subjects from time-to-time, transforming them into puppets of his will. He used such subjects to ensure his safeguard and/or to eliminate potential adversaries before they could make a move against him. An interplay of cunning, subterfuge and dark side powers, is apparent.
I don't think that members of the Dark Council were the only Sith who dared to challenge Vitiate. List would be really long because Vitiate ordered construction of the Dark Temple to serve as a prison for his worst enemies. Vitiate's timeline of existence is so long that it leaves room for a large number of stories to tell regarding him.
Burial place, prison, and reliquary, the Dark Temple was built on the orders of the Emperor to seal away powerful artifacts and the Emperor's enemies, both alive and dead. The temple became a nexus of dark side energy as the Emperor performed rituals within, drawing strength and knowledge from his captives.
Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia
It is really convenient for you to boast that Vitiate had the luxury of dealings with his enemies on his own terms. Reality is much more complex however.
HINT: An interplay of cunning, subterfuge and dark side powers on the part of Vitiate, a winning combination or proof of his strategic genius.
Originally posted by SunRazer
Compare that to Palpatine fighting Talzin and Maul on their terms rather than his own in SoD #4, literally traveling to Talzin's bastion of power to fight her. Vitiate's too scared to fight anyone on their terms; it's always on his own terms or at least on his home turf.
When Vitiate was struck down on Zakuul, he swiftly infiltrated the mind of the Outlander to escape death. Bear in mind that the Outlander is seemingly virtually immune to external Telepathic influences. Now, within the Outlander's frame of mind, Vitiate spent time to prepare his subject for complete possession by enhancing the subject's powers and was on the verge of possessing him in full until his family members intervened on the behalf of the Outlander and collectively undermined him. Their victory is completely circumstantial; the brilliant strategy of using Vitiate's own devices against him also helped.
Vitiate can more than hold his own under unfavorable set of circumstances unless the odds are heavily stacked against him.
Environment is almost irrelevant to him:
Take a look at Vitiate's demonstration of power on Asylum, Odessen and a space station orbiting Dromund Kaas additionally. What kind of home turf advantage he enjoyed in these cases?
Take a look at Vitiate's exploits on Medriaas and Ziost respectively. He conquered Medriaas during childhood and turned Ziost into a battlefield in order to recover his strength and devastated it as soon as his recovery was complete. What kind of home turf advantage he enjoyed in these cases?
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Palpatine's victory on Dathomir is absolutely circumstantial. Mother Talzin was trying to save her son (i.e. Darth Maul) and this forced her to shed her corporeal existence. She attempted to resurrect herself afterwards but additional interventions delayed the prospects of her full recovery until she found herself up against the trio of Palpatine, Count Dooku and General Grievous. As the clash progressed, General Grievous managed to stab Mother Talzin from the back, killing her. I am not sure what you see in this development to boast about Palpatine's prowess.
Palpatine might have gained some insight from this experience but we cannot tell much.
2/3
Originally posted by SunRazer
Yep. We've got the fight in the Revan novel, where Vitiate performed rather poorly for someone who was so much more powerful than his enemies, and we've got the TOR Strike Team fight. And both fights took place on his home turf, on his terms.Note that in the novel fight, he couldn't even respond to Revan batting his Lightning back at him; even Dooku knew how to deflect his own Lightning when it came back to him. That's how poorly prepared for combat novel Vitiate was. I agree that Valkorion might not be privy to similar errors, but there's absolutely nothing of praise to be said about Vitiate's fight with Revan. He was far more powerful and the engagement could have been so much easier, except for Vitiate's own combative inadequacies which dragged the fight out and made it closer.
Yoda could not stop a blast of Force lightning heading his way? Did he forgot his prowess with Tutaminis? Was he suffering from Alzheimer's?
Palpatine is defenseless against a Force push?
Obi-Wan was so much more powerful than Cade Bane? What is that?
Count Dooku cannot take care of his lightsabers in company of some pirates...He was so much more powerful than Hondo? What is that?
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Your critic of Vitiate's combat prowess is bordering absurd.
Revan and T3-M4 confronted Vitiate whereas Lord Scourge and Meetra Surik contended with Imperial Guard. These two confrontations occurred simultaneously but distinctively at two different locations of the same setting. In this format, it was logical for Vitiate to concentrate on the moves of Revan and T3-M4 because they targeted him. Lord Scourge and Meetra Surik would be of least concern at this stage, given their situation and proximity.
As Revan and Vitiate exchanged blows, T3-M4 watched from a distance and waited for the right moment to strike. When Vitiate unleashed a Force Lightning Storm on Revan, it was during this moment that T3-M4 saw an opportunity to attack Vitiate because the latter was preoccupied; Vitiate instantaneously shielded himself from its flamethrower attack and destroyed it in response. This is good demonstration of Vitiate's situational awareness and responsiveness to an immediate threat (to his existence) at close proximity.
Proximity is the key word. You concentrate on the format of the battle.
Vitiate (eventually) brought Revan to his knees and was about to execute him but Meetra Surik intervened. Surik flung her lightsaber towards the position of Vitiate in order to save Revan (from considerable distance); this move caught Vitiate by surprise because Surik was contending with the Imperial Guard earlier and was not in the picture. It is a bit premature to accuse Vitiate of tunnel vision in this situation. Another point is that Vitiate had not honed his reflexes for lightsaber combat.
ANALOGY:
When Palpatine was subjecting Rahm Kota to a barrage of Force lightning, Starkiller gestured in the direction of Palpatine from noticeable distance. Debris fell over Palpatine, breaking his attack and forcing him to retreat. So we accuse Palpatine of tunnel vision in this case or lack of judgement? What if Starkiller had flung his lightsaber towards Palpatine during that moment?
Originally posted by SunRazer
How is that a personal combat situation? Out of all of this, the only part where he engaged in personal combat was against the HoT on DK, which was again on his home turf. And Vitiate ended up walking into the HoT's lightsaber. Rather abysmal, wouldn't you agree?
You continue to fixate on Vitiate's walk-in towards Hero of Tython without looking at the situation on the whole.
Originally posted by SunRazer
I'll remind you that Arcann's move was successful; Vitiate died. What is so impressive about that?
Vitiate spent much of his life contending with enemies (internal and external). He had enjoyed intervals of peace in-between but they would not last.
Originally posted by SunRazer
I'm not holding Vitiate's failure with the ritual against him; I'm talking about him literally walking into the HoT's lightsaber, which is as poor a showing of a combatant as you can get.As for Vitiate giving up and having suicidal thoughts, proof? Seems like you're taking the easy way out instead of owning up.
I have offered an explanation. I don't feel like repeating over and over again.
Originally posted by SunRazer
Nope. Malgus' "tunnel vision" was being rushed by a third party when he was completely locked into battle with Satele Shan and had no way out. You see him turning before Jace Malcon hit him; he just couldn't get out of his fight with Satele. Whereas Vitiate had Revan completely at his mercy and simply tunnel visioned; he never even saw the Saber Throw coming. That was on a dark side nexus as well.
Malgus did not know the Jedi's name and he did not care. The Zabrak was merely the focus of his anger, a convenient target for his rage.
Malgus fell into the Force, roared, and bounded down the street, his anger lending him speed.
The Jedi held his ground. At twenty meters, the Jedi raised his lightsabers aloft to either side and drew them both down with a flourish.
Too late the rumble of the falling buildings penetrated the haze of Malgus's anger. An avalanche of duracrete and transparisteel crashed down on him from either side of the street...
Malgus stood in a pocket under a mountain of rubble, legs bent, the power from his upraised hands preventing several tons of duracrete and steel from crushing him. Dust made his already troubled breathing more difficult. He coughed as the words of his father echoed in his mind.
He'd been sloppy, so lost in his need for revenge that he'd failed to properly evaluate the Jedi's power. He'd surrendered his reason to bloodlust. But no more. With an effort of will, he contained his anger, controlled it, made it a whetstone against which he sharpened his power. Using the Force, he blew the rubble up and away from him. It fell with a crash into the adjacent buildings. A Force-augmented leap carried him out and over the heap. The Jedi's eyes widened as Malgus hit the street. Malgus sneered and charged.
Taken from The Third Lesson
You see? A seasoned warrior like Darth Malgus demonstrated lack of judgement during that moment. His let his rage cloud his judgement for a while but realized his error.
Originally posted by SunRazer
Meetra and Palpatine were not tunnel visioned, but simply expecting Scourge and Vader to be their allies, not their enemies. Compare that to Valkorion, who knew full well that the Outlander was an enemy and literally witnessed Arcann cut the Outlander's handcuffs, yet proceeded to have his back turned the Outlander the entire time he was fighting Arcann, resulting in him getting impaled/shot in the back. Textbook case of tunnel vision again.
Revan; Surik; Palpatine; and Vitiate - all were guilty of miscalculations to a certain extent in those situations.
Surik did not even notice Lord Scourge positioning himself behind her while she concentrated on Vitiate. Yet, you continue to critic Vitiate for not noticing her lightsaber throw towards him while he concentrated on Revan. A sign of double-standards in your assessment.
3/3
Originally posted by SunRazer
Palpatine is at least alert against people that he knows are his enemies. I mean, compare this to this. Sure, one came from behind and the other came from in front, but at least Palpatine is clearly alert and ready to draw his blade at a moment's notice. He knows Starkiller could potentially lash out at him, so he's guarded against that. By contrast, Valkorion completely forgets about the Outlander and keeps talking to Arcann after defeating him instead of switching his target to the Outlander.
1. Vitiate versus T3-M4 (sneak attack from behind)
2. Vitiate-possessed Master Surro versus Lana Beniko (sneak attack from behind)
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Vitiate did not forget the Outlander! When he floored Arcann, he muttered "that is why you fail" and the Outlander plunged his lightsaber into him from behind a split-second later.
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Now, what about Palpatine getting shot on the back by Han Solo?
We can continue to go in circles over this matter, pinpointing moments of impaired judgement of each character at different points in time.
Critic should be tasteful, not overdone. It looses its value otherwise.
Originally posted by SunRazer
Vitiate's chief advancement is learning Essence Transfer as a safeguard against personal assassination. And it's nice that he finally learned Force Deflection but as we see in both JK Act III and KotFE Chapter 1, he is still prone to rookiee combative errors. He hasn't advanced much there.
Everybody is prone to rookiee combative errors in the heat of combat. I have provided some visual examples above.
Originally posted by SunRazer
Though I fail to see what advancements Vitiate has made that Palpatine hasn't, but I suppose that's the focus of your next post which I'll address shortly.
Originally posted by SunRazer
1. Palpatine has this as well, not to mention that Vitiate has only ever attempted it in battle once, and that was against Revan with the luxury of distance and a dark side nexus. Vitiate didn't even attempt TP against the strike team in JK Act II until he already defeated them. I fail to see how this will matter here.
Originally posted by SunRazer
3. What displays of Sorcery has Vitiate ever shown in a fight? Palpatine has this as well.
1. Vitiate's assault on a rebellious Dark Council seems to be an act of Sith Sorcery; an unidentified application in this case.
2. Vitiate's illusions-based assault on the duo of Hero of Tython and T7-O1 seems to be an act of Sith Sorcery.
3. Vitiate's esoteric wave of Dark Side energy that he unleashed on a large contingent of Knights of Zakuul and Skytroopers on Zakuul.
4. Vitiate's esoteric act of enhancing the attunement of the Outlander with the Force on Odessen.
5. Vitiate's Dark blast application that incorporates Force lightning and Telekinesis in a single concentrated stream of attack.
6. Force blasts; Vitiate can unleash them with bare hands.
7. Vitiate creating/conjuring monstrosities of pure Dark Side energy such as Monolith.
8. Vitiate's signature tsunami of Dark Side energy that devastated Ziost. This was not a conventional Force Drain power.
Originally posted by SunRazer
4. Palpatine has this as well. Valkorion's Ziost incident clearly isn't applicable to a one-on-one fight, certainly not anymore than Palpatine's Storms are.
Originally posted by SunRazer
5. It wasn't a Storm because nothing else appeared to be affected. Incorporeal spirits can instantly teleport from one dark side nexus to another (see Freedon Nadd in TotJ). That's irrelevant to a combat scenario. Valkorion hasn't shown the power to teleport in the flesh.
"We suffered many casualties upon the Emperor's return..." (Darth Marr)
Sounds like Force Storm or a sister application. Conventional Teleportation is not a violent activity like that.
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Freedon Nadd was able to manifest in key locations (strong in the Dark Side) across the galaxy; those are not conventional locations but focal points of Dark Side energy. This doesn't seems to be a conventional act of teleportation.
You see - majority of Sith spirits - are not able to conventionally teleport to a distant location. They tend to anchor themselves to a location strong in the Dark Side or an object in order to escape the pull of the Void.
Even Palpatine's spirit could not conventionally teleport itself to a distant location.
Originally posted by SunRazer
7. Yeah, again, Palpatine has this as well and has shown it.
Vitiate was capable of manipulating the external environment to enormous ends in intangible form. Look at his exploits on Yavin IV and Ziost respectively.
Originally posted by SunRazer
So really, Palpatine has access to all of these as well as Valkorion, and most of these aren't even relevant to a one-on-one battle.
