My reputation for fragility is just people being stupid and mistaking any amount of emphasis and passion in my words as anger.
Lol, how is this even a valid comparison? Kreia does more than just talk, and her voice acting is particularly excellent at any rate with a lot of subtlety, character and emotion, plus she actually gets to talk about interesting things. We only see "Sidious" like 4 times in the first few movies, he tells the Trade Feds to kill the Jedi, he tells them he's sending Maul, he talks to Maul for like 10 seconds and then he talks to Dooku for like 10 seconds. I wasn't criticising the character, just that he was sorely under-utilised and underplayed. He really wasn't allowed to make an impact in the first two movies imo, which is a shame because he's the character with the most life and energy in RotS.
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Last edited by Nephthys on Nov 28th, 2014 at 02:30 AM
Sure, but even that is not particularly original. Melkor from Tolkien's Legendarium, once he could no longer just RAWR SMASH everything into submission, played quite a manipulative game. Sauron even more-so, when he coolly manipulated the Numenoreans into destroying themselves and would have destroyed much of Valinor without the literal intervention of God. Sure, Palpatine is a magnificent bastard and chessmaster, but so are lots of characters. Lex Luthor for example, who battles someone who is for all intents and purposes a living god with his intelligence and the vast resources he acquired with that intelligence. He very rarely grabs for power openly, he prefers to maintain good publicity and gain power through legal means (with some backstage backstabbing). Like when he became president.
Don't get me wrong, I certainly get Palpatine's appeal and actually do enjoy quite a few of his scenes (like his forcing Maul to cry and beg for his life at his feet), but I still would say that Traya is a somewhat more original villain in Star Wars. As is Nihilus, maybe, but you might be aware of earlier cosmic horrors that were in the franchise.
Also, to be honest, your description of Sidious applies to Traya too. She certainly has the power to throw down when she needs to, like when she killed the Jedi Masters, but most of the game she is on your side and trying to manipulate the Exile into furthering her own goal (and killing Nihilus IIRC, who is a threat to her plans due to the enormity of his power and the persistence of his hunger).
Traya also demonstrates something that to my knowledge Palpatine never did. Doubt. She outright acknowledges the possibility that she is just one more in a long line of deluded Sith and that she might be a hypocrite for using a power she claims to hate. That she has this fallible persona makes her a more human character than Palpatine, who, while not actually infallible, certainly believes he is.
You know what, I'll go ahead and admit that his manipulation of the Republic is fine.
It's the Jedi that are the problem. I've already mentioned how they consistently treat Anakin in the worst possible way they could, as if they were trying to give him the doubts and insecurities which led to his fall.
Palpatine didn't really break his cover here either, but his winning Anakin to his side would have been far less likely to work had the Jedi not given Anakin every reason to distrust them.
Read above.
Why, though? The subject matter is plenty interesting in of itself sure, but what ideas does the story put forth? What thought does it provoke? Overrated as Kotor 2 is as a deconstruction IMO it does have interesting ideas that generate discussion. The most discussion I've seen the prequels generate is about whether or not they are good.
Well, like I said, I don't have a great deal of emotional attachment to the subject matter, which probably makes it easy for me to not get mad about it lol.
Is it really a trap when your post made no sense, I pointed out that it made made no sense and clarified what I meant and then you farcically claim you were tricking me into (gasp) actually replying to you? I wasn't caricaturize'ing Palps, I was literally describing his role in the first two movies. That's literally what he does. :shrug:
And unless you think I'm going to lie about whats in the movies, my honesty doesn't really have much relevance.
Yeah, she admits to her hypocrisy in wielding the very thing she hates. She says a bunch of stuff then goes "But maybe thats just the empty justifications of an old woman, clinging to the very thing she hates" or something.
__________________ "Vader's pulse and breathing were machine-regulated, so they could not quicken; but something in his chest became more electric around his meetings with the Emperor; he could not say how. A feeling of fullness, of power, of dark and demon mastery -- of secret lusts, unrestrained passion, wild submission -- all these things were in Vader's heart as he neared his Emperor. These things and more."
Don't misunderstand me: I'm not claiming that Palpatine is an entirely original character. Other villains in popular culture have utilized similar methods, but few in mainstream cinema are given the same intimate exploration that Palpatine is and fewer still are actually effective. I'd say the vast majority of baddies in the science fiction/fantasy genre attempt to achieve their ends through rawr smash conquest, which doesn't do much for me given that trope's oversaturation.
Likewise, Eldritch Abominations and Treacherous Advisors aren't totally original either.
Sure, but I guess I found Traya's manipulations a bit more transparent given how much she telegraphs her manipulations. Traya is essentially Sidious-as-Sidious, speaking in Low Ominous Tones in a Dark Hooded Robe and essentially being Obviously Evil or at the very least Obviously Untrustworthy but Sidious-as-Palpatine is actually pretty unassuming and convincing, particularly in TPM and AOTC.
Sure but then again Palpatine is both a malignant narcissist and sociopath. By his very nature, he's possessed of an enormous arrogance.
The Jedi were clearly aloof and detached {in general, really} in their treatment of Anakin, but this isn't symptomatic of bad writing so much as it is a deliberate creative choice to portray the Jedi as that way. I suppose I don't see what you see by the examples you provided. The Jedi granted Anakin a seat on the Council due to external pressure from Palpatine but didn't confer the rank of Master upon him for two reasons: an F-U to Palpatine and they obviously didn't think Anakin was deserving of the title, his obvious power notwithstanding. With respect to Yoda essentially telling Anakin to "lol get over it," this is again a consistent theme: the Jedi as an institution don't tolerate attachments that could conflict to their greater devotion to the order and the Force.
There again, though, the Jedi really didn't do anything illogical and therefore stupid. Wrong and stupid are two different things and while I certainly agree that the Jedi failed utterly in the prequels, the logic in most of their decisions was quite sound. For example, what ultimately tipped the scales for Anakin was Mace's decision to execute Palpatine, a decision that was certainly logical given how enormously powerful Palpatine was physically and his political clout with the Republic. Mace's decision ultimately played into Palpatine's hands, but Mace himself had no way of knowing that and Mace's decision was based on sound logic.
The prequels have provoked a great deal of commentary usually when their quality is questioned. I'd say a lot more people talk a shitton more about the prequels (even in-depth) than KotOR 2.
It's a gift only few of us share. We must do our part to spread it to others.
ESB and ROTS are my 2 favorite of the saga not including ANH.
The reason I don't include ANH is simply because it's not fair to judge it now on it's rewatchabilty value compared to the others. But fact is it's the film that introduced us to the Star Wars Universe and is the most fun of all 6 movies. On that basis it's probably the best.
He really doesn't. I already explained to you how AOTC itself is a stellar example of the lengths Sidious goes to not telegraph his bids for power. Sidious wants to start the Clone Wars. For that to happen, he needs the Republic to form a military. So rather than campaign for the creation of one (as many real world politicians would), he publicly goes to great lengths to delay the vote to accommodate the opposition and reaffirms his stance in negotiation.
He needs emergency powers to create an army with the Senate in gridlock, but does he campaign or ask for them (as Hitler, a real world successful politician did)? Nope. He has his flunkies do it for him whilst he "reluctantly" accepts and vows to lay them down the second they're no longer needed.
You're not very good at this, Neph. Whether that owes to ignorance or dishonesty is unclear (likely a bit of both), but we're back to square one. Let's leave it to NemeBro or Beefy.
Nov 28th, 2014 02:22 AM
