Gender: Male Location: Planning to take over the WORLD!
full capacity vs in-character (had to happen!)
soooo, i seem to have raised something of a sh!tstorm.
good. when something has been around for a long time, it sometimes bares re-examining that thing. forum rules, and the way we look at battles, is just one of them.
i'll preface this whole thread and idea with this--my goal wasn't to overturn any applecarts, my goal was simply to try generating new and different discussions. lazy and sloppy debates have become sort of common place. that...probably won't change, but if we can generate something new, look at old battles in new ways, doesn't seem like a bad thing.
ANYWAY... my proposal is simple--i'd like to add a rule into the official rules that clarifies just what it means for a character to be IN CHARACTER. TO ME that would mean we use typical comic portrayal as the determining factor. as a a forum that professes to be character-based in argument formation (as opposed to power set based) it seems only logical we use comic portrayals as the determining factor.
this would mean that REGARDLESS OF PERCEIVED PIS, we look at what a character would do in a battle based on what they do in a comic.
"but leo, we're ignoring PIS!!"
no. superman still doesn't kill. he just....doesn't see opponents as statues at the start of a fight. why? because he's never entered a battle viewing opponents as statues--or rather, he ALMOST never has. flash wouldn't fight every battle at greater than light speed--or even light speed. why? because he doesn't do so in comics. if you think he does, the onus is on YOU to prove it. ss isn't transmuting anyone, and likely starts most battles blasting someone--unless YOU can prove different.
i like the idea for a couple reasons--it brings characters like flash BACK into matches. he isn't ending matches in an attosecond because, well, he doesn't.
this ALSO doesn't preclude FULL CAPACITY--it simply mitigates its usage. full capacity may depend on who is fighting whom. it will also heavily mitigate high end feats AND low end ones making them essentially illegal in many cases, because they are not typical performances.
and of course, any thread can dictate its OWN rules. so if you don't like this, you can simply put FULL CAP in your thread and play by your own rules.
so, looking for thoughts. i'd love to see a rule added whether it takes exactly the form i'm talking about or some variation.
So Batman, as an example. Is fighting character X (Boulderine).
He tries his usual batarang. Bounces off.
Now, does he switch it up? How long would it take Batman to switch tactics?
Now, the next question is how do we treat speed. Is it a gear one switches into, or is it 'on', like durability?
Specific examples, I know, but quite vital. Speed of thought is pretty important when battling.....Which is why we have the CIS rule. The Spot being a perfect example of this.
If I made a thread with two characters who are friends in comics (Booster vs Ted Kord, whatever), would we just go 'oh in character they will never fight, so this thread is dead?'
That would make a lot of threads redundant. Punisher automatically loses to Cap. Current Thor, even if I gave him Janbjorn and Mjolnir and the Belt of Strength etc, would lose to Jen because she'd just smash him. Etc etc.
In character is fine, up to a point. We have created threads where characters who, in character, would never fight each other. Hell, Superman would not normally fight WW. Does that mean we just end the thread at page 1?
Or do we assume actually, these guys are in the match, ready to fight, and ready to win?
Gender: Male Location: Planning to take over the WORLD!
the last point is already defined in the rules:
of course with flash that could be very different--onus on the debater to prove.
intelligence? not sure i understand. imo, intelligence plays a limited role in a forum fight--at least it may be dependent on the environment. one might say bats can read opponents quicker--prove it--and use...whatever tactic he wants. he'd certainly face wh with a different mindset than superman might. i don't see why intelligence would be portrayed any differently.... /shrug only so many ways in a forum fight to outthink an opponent.
always comes down to speed, eh? how often in a comic do you think flash or superman ACTUALLY, and quantitatively fight at light speed? superman? almost never. he is restricted by environment. you might say--a forum has no environment. so, how often does he fight at lightspeed in space?
does this mean they still can't out-speed 99% of opponents? clearly not. but the while attosecond stuff? it's such a minute part of his achievements, that i don't see why THAT should be the go-to. that should be the last resort. maybe we should go back to giving wins out of 10. as battles progress, tactics would certainly change. again, let the books be the guides.
cis, like pis, remains unchanged--within the parameters of the comics.
Gender: Male Location: Planning to take over the WORLD!
good guys fight all the time in comics. and an op could easily state--they are going at it like they were enemies. or maybe they just fight to ko each other, like they usually do in comics, which would mitigate the level of attacks they would go for. you know, like good guys actually WOULD do as defined by their character.
Gender: Male Location: Planning to take over the WORLD!
unfortunately, this simply doesn't happen. a rule defining what is and isn't in character would, help enforce the common sense rule. maybe. it would at least give someone the option of saying--hey, dumba$$, that is power set debating, not character-based debating. take that sh!t somewhere else.
character shields=pis. easily discounted, and no one would claim a character wins because they would win in a comic anyway. well, almost no one would say that....
and you'd be right on. anyone saying otherwise simply doesn't know what they are talking about.
I wouldn’t say it’s always common sense. I think it has to do more with certain powers sets. Like Darksaint already said, why is durability a fixed power and level, but speed isn’t? Why is Superman’s speed generally questioned but his durability isn’t?
Members need to draw a line on what “on panel” means. It’s rather frustrating arguing that Y hero/villain can tag Zoom or flash because Batman or some villain tagged them in issues. Yes, it happened on panel but characters won’t operate at optimal levels all times. Especially when those optimal levels would destroy the story. It’s called PIS and CIS, it’s been established for ages.
Do I expect Superman to go at multiple light speed punching barrage against every opponent? No but I do expect him to use his speed to the point that his opponent probably won’t hit him. Pinosecond level? No but enough that you can’t match him. He has the brain, he has done it on panel, he will do it in a comic fight. Will he do it against Daredevil? Probably not. He’d probably just do a thunderclap or something even more easier.
Now, there also needs to be a line drawn with certain powers. Hal was able to kill Krona with one attack. That attack is generally considered the strongest attack by any non-powered GL. It pretty much killed a skyfather+ level being. Yet, I don’t expect Hal to do go around using this type or level of attack in forum fight. It’s a very high end attack that he barely ever used. Do I expect SS to start speedblitzing while creating a mini black hole in every forum fight? Hell no! He barely does it, certain scenarios probably were never even done in comics. I don’t expect him to do it in a forum battle either. The same argument goes with Flash’s speed steal. He can clearly do it but he probably won’t unless most of his other attempts fail. No, I don’t expect him to start a fight by using this ability every time.
You may ask, what’s the difference between superman example and GL Hal (Krona buster). I think the easiest way to answer it is the powerset
In character is fine but it also needs to within a limit. Tell me Superman would stand and trade blows against Doomsday level being is crazy.
What Leo is suggest seriously hurts heroes/villains who appear in many different comics. Superman appears in street level to universal level arcs. You can seriously try and draw a conclusion that he “won’t speed blitz” because he clearly hasn’t done it every time. It’s ludacris.
Gender: Male Location: Planning to take over the WORLD!
except....he did EXACTLY that.
not really. it has the advantage of making threads against people with limited showings stupid. which....they are. but you're using some common sense in your approach, which is in short supply in most threads. AGAIN: it will depend on who is fighting whom. if superman is battling darkseid, he'd know what to do, and how powerful his attack should be. using full capacity though, darkseid will be a LITERAL statue for superman. it doesn't matter that ds is NEVER a statue when they meet. ever. unless you have proof of darkseid's speed, he is a statue. flash beats ds 100/100 because he speed steals. make sense? how is THAT any sort of reflection of the actual characters?
FULL CAPACITY attempts to force rl logic on....illogical and never-intended-to-be-used-this-way power sets. that is WHY we have claims of 'haxx' powers. because they were only ever intended to be used IN COMICS.
going back to the darkseid bit, common sense says darkseid would be able to react/attack/defend/defeat either superman or flash. but full capacity has superman hitting darkseid 100 000 times with planet busting force. common sense? of course not. a viable tactic in the forum? absolutely, based on the rules. speed steal ftw 100/100? by forum rule, viable, and brushed off as haxx. why accept that?
common sense fails in the established climate.
IN CHARACTER and FULL CAPACITY are IRRECONCILABLY opposed. how can FULL CAPACITY be IN CHARACTER, when IN CHARACTER, superman almost NEVER operates at FULL CAPACITY?
I see it like this, you're either debating powerset or you're not. If you're debating powerset, the need of posting scans are irrelevant. Surfer goes in creating black holes, going intangible, sucking people into his board and soul sucking. Almost everyone that is debating FOR powerset style discussions always say Thor tends to go in swinging vs him using all of his abilities during the onset. This makes people like Kalibak, Mongul, Shaggyman, Damage, etc.. pointless against upper tier beings because they have nothing showing they could keep pace with the best of bricks that actually have decent speed showings, etc... I could make a Gladiator vs Darkseid thread and get away with saying Gladiator would curb him since well, Darkseid doesnt have a single showing proving he could keep pace or perceive Gladiator in an all out battle.
Darkseid vs Zoom - Darkseid loses
Darkseid vs Flash - Darkseid loses
Darkseid vs Wonder Woman - gets lassoed and stabbed to death
Darkseid vs Surfer - Darkseid loses
Wolverine have nuke level durability. Spiderman have Ultimate nullifier durability. Ya know, these two have survived these things.
Worst way to debate and it's a complete change over what has been consistent and stable for yrs throughout the forum.
says the guy who only debates powersets in every hulk thread
the way i see it, this is a BATTLE BOARD. as long as the feats posted are part of a characters average [not just extreme highs, extreme lows, or oneoff cheese] then anything should be usable. if i wanted to debate what a character would do IN A COMIC, i'd just read the damn comic.
Yes, he did take a hit from DD and people his level. I can also give you scans of him speed blitzing them and actively trying to dodge their attacks. Doesn't that suggest that at the very least, him taking blows if more CIS/PIS issue rather than anything else?
As far as the DS example, I think this is where PIS/CIS comes and author "intention". Feats or not, most author's intention is that Superman is DS' equal.
But CIS and PIS aren't the same. The rules say "Events of CIS are not exempt from debates," which is obviously the opposite of PIS. If Superman trading blows with DD is CIS, it should count, right?
I think Leo's on the money with this. Imo, the "debate characters vs powersets" tension is what the CIS rule was trying to anticipate by addressing "any natural mental limitations that characters impose upon themselves and reduce their ability to use their own skills and powers effectively"
...but CIS is defined too narrowly, and failed to strike the right balance. It shouldn't just be about characters acting stupidly, but instead more plainly that we can't discount showings just because a character was behaving in character.
Meanwhile, it seems like PIS broadened to fill the gap. In one rule it's described as being about jobbing, and in another it more broadly captures every Flash story.
And then the CIP rule identified the gap but never seemed to stick, but was the most clear statement that characters fight in character, bottom line.
An actual "in character" rule would be one way to address that gap.
Re: full capacity vs in-character (had to happen!)
There's a difference between style/creativity and intellect.
Characters may or may not consider certain tactics because of style/creativity.
I can understand we shouldn't use a character's highest showings as the default level in a forum. But we shouldn't completely ignore abilities that characters have shown multiple times as them not having the abilities at all.
Speed is one of Superman's most basic abilities. He has used speed thousands of times (from evading attacks to blitzing to getting somewhere quickly). Everytime he used speed, his perceptions of things were much slower than to a normal human.
The spirit of forum fights is based off what we did as children (arguing who will beat who).
Characters act stupidly (far below their intelligence) for the sake of the plot. There is no story in a forum fight that forces a character to do this.
For everytime you show Superman getting hit by something very slow I can show you a time he used speed that contradicts it. Superman has so many speed feats it's ridiculous for you to say the things you said.
Anyway. The forum rules are for full capacity are
FIGHTING TO THE BEST OF ONE'S ABILITY AS SHOWN BEFORE.
Well, we have had mentions like morality on, morality off or bloodlusted. With the current rules we aren't really discussing just powersets, for me we do consider the likeness of an event happening under the control of an specific character before throwing it into the arena (I don't recall many Superman fans actually claiming he'd use a counter-frequence to destroy Hulk). Powersets would also allow characters to do things they have never managed or even being implied to do before. Surfer has never used a singularity inside someone's body but he has implied he could do it, Airwalker derives his Powers from the same source, so is he supposed to spam singularities too if we use powersets?
As long as everything is agreed upon I don't mind either kind of debating.
Here's where you are wrong.
You say, "how is that a reflection of actual characters?"
But it is a reflection of actual characters. The showings you are referring to are not a reflection of actual characters.
In character has nothing to do with how a character performs in some comics. It has everything to do with how a character is supposed to perform (whether he does or not in a particular comic). You must apply common sense.
If we start arguing shit that makes no sense then it kills the actual debate.
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Feb 28th, 2019 08:19 PM
