Bro, I expect you to not jump in to premature conclusions on the basis of insignificant information provided by PT/OT worshippers.
Here is the actual event:
EVEN AS SHE CALLED to Scourge to help, Meetra was already sprinting toward the far end of the throne room. Scourge hesitated before joining her, taking a moment to survey the situation, memories of his vision of their failure still fresh in his mind.
What he saw was not good. Revan was being electrocuted, his body spasming uncontrollably as the Emperor blasted him with dark purple lightning.
Revan's astromech launched a jet of flame at the Emperor, freeing Revan, who collapsed to the ground. In retaliation, the Emperor disintegrated the offending droid, strode over to where Revan lay, and picked the vanquished Jedi's lightsaber up off the floor.
It all happened in the space of only a few seconds. Meetra was moving fast, but she was too far away to stop the Emperor from eviscerating the prone Jedi at his feet.
In desperation, she hurled her lightsaber with a wild sidearm throw, guiding it with the Force so that it spiraled end-over-end to intercept the descending blade, knocking it from the Emperor's grasp and sending it skittering across the floor.
Suddenly empty-handed, the Emperor took a quick step back. His attention had been focused solely on Revan; Meetra's trick had caught him by surprise. (SWTOR Revan)
As you can note, Sith Emperor was preoccupied with Revan when Meetra struck him from a great distance.
Surprise attack is surprise attack. It can surprise anybody.
Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on Dec 26th, 2012 at 07:34 PM
Revan is not pussified in the novel. It is just that some people (PT/OT worshippers in particular) underestimate Sith Emperor (Vitiate) without logical basis.
However, novel is not very well done IMO as well.
Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on Dec 26th, 2012 at 07:53 PM
If what you say is true, he could have left his body at any time. Instead, he was desperately trying to get hold of Anakin Solo and as such, was not aware of Han.
When has Sidious ever just left his body? It's been awhile since I read DE, but in that I seem to recall him letting Luke kill him so he could use a younger body.
In a battle of Magicians Vitiate wins unless Sidious gets the same amount of prep.
Because Sidious would be more dangerous with prep than Vitiate, he was the stronger Sith Lord. He would summon Sith Chrysalide Super Rancors or something.
__________________ "Compounding these trickster aspects, the Joker ethos is verbally explicated as such by his psychiatrist, who describes his madness as "super-sanity." Where "sanity" previously suggested acquiescence with cultural codes, the addition of "super" implies that this common "sanity" has been replaced by a superior form, in which perception and processing are completely ungoverned and unconstrained"
Sidous' first young clone was immortal so long as he continued feeding off of the inhabitants of Byss or even Corucscant. His other clones were sabotaged.
Sidious was stronger in the Force because all the power of the Dark Side wasn't spread out as much as with Vitiate and the thousands of Sith who ruled under him. Such is the Rule of Two.
__________________ "Compounding these trickster aspects, the Joker ethos is verbally explicated as such by his psychiatrist, who describes his madness as "super-sanity." Where "sanity" previously suggested acquiescence with cultural codes, the addition of "super" implies that this common "sanity" has been replaced by a superior form, in which perception and processing are completely ungoverned and unconstrained"
This does not follow. It would only follow that the clones may not be able to maintain such intensity for an indefinite period of time. The reborn Emperor was more than capable of dueling at nigh-invisible speeds (The Dark Empire audiobook), conjuring Force lightning (Empire's End), unleashing Force Storms, etc. and so forth.
I apologize in advance for the lack of italics and proper dressings. Drafted this on Microsoft Word this morning but the internet has been spotty as hell where I am, it could give out at any moment.
I don’t ask for gifts at Christmas anymore, but my parents gave me $300, a sweater, and a jacket; my girlfriend purchased tickets for us to see Journey in February. All things considered, I made out like a bandit.
Vitiate’s superiority over Nyriss is not in question, bro.
But the inconsistency of their attacks is curious: Nyriss’s reflected beams tore through her shields and reduced her to ash. Comparatively, Vitiate’s lightning simply burned Revan’s flesh and heated his mask to extreme levels. Revan was literally back on his feet and ready to fight in a matter of moments by drawing on the Force. Are we to conclude Revan’s flesh was more lightning-resistant than Nyriss’s?
Bringing down a lot of rock isn’t that impressive when the effort is being aided by gravity. The good Count of Serenno scoffs at your ridiculous suggestions.
As long as you’re not suggesting that Vitiate would be able to reproduce certain feats against everyone—and you have argued such things before—then we’re good.
I didn’t say Vitiate sucks, bro. I simply said he’s not the all-powerful titan who presently inspires the sum and total of your sexual fantasies.
And let’s not discuss “incredibly illogical and disingenuous arguments” when in this very post, you (a.) suggest that a T7 astromech is on-par with powerful Force users because he’s “saved lives” (R2-D2, anyone?), (b.) suggest that Dromund Kaas is not a dark side nexus because the text clearly refers to “dark side practitioners” when it says the world “bristles with the dark side,” and (c.) suggest that Vitiate’s mastery of the Force is logically “exponentially” greater than anyone else’s and is “off the charts” despite the fact that his feats are hardly beyond compare.
If you watch carefully, he raises his hand to intercept the bolts and before he’s put on his ass.
No, my argument was that the Emperor’s “ash-reducing lightning” would not manifest against enemies on the caliber of Yoda precisely because of their ability to resist it. He reduces plenty of people to ash and charred skeletons across the mythos, but they were either Forceless or adepts who were hardly a match for the Grand Master of the Jedi Order.
lol
You conflate inference with idle speculation. The former (mine) has basis; the latter does not. We see examples of Yoda’s superhuman physicality routinely: his longevity is exponentially greater and his durability is greater than the average person.
Regardless, if all we’re going to dismiss things that are not expressly stated in an authoritative sources as speculation, you couldn’t have picked a less appropriate character to defend and a more formidable opponent to dispute.
Because the T7 emerges unscathed and none of the cutscenes depict him unleashing that level of power? Really, Vitiate comes off rather flaccid.
Besides which, by the time the Hero notices what Vitiates doing, the temple is already collapsing. They'd of had to block Vitiates attempts and hold up the temple at the same time. Fleeing was easier.
If I may borrow your phrase, “speculation.”
That T7 survives fights against TOR-era Force users may very well simply be an indictment of their abilities rather than an endorsement of his. That he “bravely faces danger on a daily basis” and saved dozens of lives does not constitute proof that he could withstand a powerful Force adept in combat or display abilities on par with such figures. You have hardly presented the circumstances of T7’s victory over the HK units nor do I recall a shred of evidence that suggests those droids could take on Jedi-level opponents in straight-up combat. As I recall, they were assassins and saboteurs by trade, were they not?
We see some three-thousand-years later an astromech droid acquit himself well in danger, saving countless lives. But no one would suggest R2D2 could beat Count Dooku in a fight.
According to what source “would that take time”? Even if so, how can you determine the length of time it would take? And according to what source are they resistant to Force attacks?
Ambria’s dark side energies were largely quarantined in Lake Nath—it is hardly a conventional nexus where such potency is allowed to operate unmitigated. If you can provide proof of comparable circumstances for Dromund Kaas, I’ll entertain such foolishness.
This is a baseless stretch that willfully contorts the English language. Undoubtedly Dromund Kaas’s dark side potency is the result of being so heavily populated by large numbers of dark side practitioners, but between that and Vitiate’s esoteric rituals, why wouldn’t it taint the world itself?
Regardless, even if you wish to ignore this and Scourge’s own observations about the world, the Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia says that “Luke Skywalker later decided to keep Dromund Kaas’s location a secret to keep its dark power from falling into the wrong hands.”
Not really, no.
But, regardless, I’m pleased that you view the two of them as being close, since that undermines the frankly idiotic conclusion that Vitiate’s mastery is somehow “exponentially greater” than the Emperor’s.
Ah, yes, I remember. In order for one to be considered authoritative by you, one has to be a non-Force sensitive colonel who’s nearly mindless under the oppression of the dark side. I forget that the opinions of fully trained Sith Lords are totally irrelevant—except when one of those same Sith Lords says that anyone other than the Hero and T7 can withstand Vitiate’s mind powers, because, well, uh...
It’s remarkable how expertise is such a transient thing for you.
Not exactly comparable scenarios, are they? Undoubtedly a body’s physical attributes are weakened by injury as are certain Force powers—Plagueis, after all, literally suffered heart failure when he tried to summon lightning against the Maladians. Otherwise, he had no trouble using telekinesis. Sidious’s physicality was similarly weakened and he was shot in the back; otherwise, he one-shot every Jedi who came at him. Anakin was in exceptional, extraordinary pain, to say nothing that levitation is a bewilderingly rare talent among Jedi and Sith. Vitiate, on the other hand, was dying but evidently not suffering.
Either way, your argument is that Vitiate could clearly reproduce the effects of such TK in a conventional fight. We see no evidence of this sort of carnage and destruction in the cutscenes, suggesting that this may very well have been a final exhalation of power at the moment of his spirit’s release from corporeality.
No clue. But a great deal of time relative to a 900 year old sage would probably be a little more than 2.
Depends on what you mean by plenty of time to study. He was a political operative for decades and spent years masterminding his own rise to power, to say nothing of when he finally micromanaged an unprecedented galactic war by controlling both sides. Hardly a lax schedule. By your reckoning, Sidious must have been a veritable neophyte in the ways of the Force. Now, obviously, everything we know about him says otherwise—but that would require you to reconsider your stringent formula for determining Force mastery.
Actually, you’ve made my point for me: the fact that Bane surpassed other, more experience adepts so quickly is conclusive evidence of what I’ve said all along: time is inconsequential when the adept in question possesses such innate talent. Your argument that the dark side is what confers mastery is undermined completely: his Sith colleagues and classmates were aligned to the dark side as well and could not match his accelerated learning rate.
This is irrelevant; I don’t need a rundown of Revan’s thirst for knowledge as it wasn’t in question. Clearly he was a voracious learner and Force prodigy; that’s precisely my point: time alone would not have conferred on him such an elite command of the Force, which outstripped scholars decades older than he (Kreia? Nyriss?).
No, because if it were merely a product of alignment and time, then all dark siders would progress at comparable rates.
Indeed, clearly there are far more important elements at play than time. Force alignment may very well play a role, but the deciding factor is innate talent.
That depends. Dooku had access to the Jedi Archives, supposedly the single greatest repository of knowledge in the galaxy. Dooku’s skill with fencing was never attributed as obsession nor has it ever been claimed that he spent every waking moment honing his talents in this regard. It is precisely Dooku’s quest to “learn the secrets of the dark side” that enticed him to leave the order (Darth Plagueis). Whether or not he was as lustful of knowledge as Vitiate or the Emperor is not the question; the fact remains that he was, by all accounts, an inquisitive mind with access to a wealth of Force knowledge and a considerable amount of time to slake such thirst.
No, this logically is not true. As you confessed earlier, you perceive the two as being very close in abilities. Where does Vitiate’s “exponentially” superior mastery relative to the Emperor’s manifest?
That’s the trap, you see. It’s not enough to claim that Vitiate’s mastery is greater; that has been acknowledged as absolutely possible. You claimed that it is “off the charts” and tremendously superior. Where is the evidence for this? Where is such peerless mastery made manifest? Your formula requires that, since Vitiate had exponentially greater time to study, the results must be exponentially greater as well.
Yet I’ve shown you plenty of examples (a few you have unwittingly provided yourself) where this is not the case at all. Next to these, your formula alone cannot stand. A cursory examination of their relative feats hardly suggests a titanic advantage for Vitiate.
Unaided, we know Vitiate overpowered Tol Braga’s strike team and destroyed droids; on a dark side nexus, he’s created “shadow clones,” unleashed a telekinetic wave that put Revan on his ass, and a storm of lightning that sheared through the former’s defenses and reduced him to a smoldering heap. Ritually, we know he orchestrated an effort with the participation of thousands of Sith Lords that enabled him to absorb their power, along with the life-force of the entire planet, and reduced it to either an extremely powerful dark side nexus or a world devoid of the Force entirely; similarly, he was able to bind the wills of the Imperial Guardsmen to him and incite perpetual lightning storms across the surface of Dromund Kaas. Under murkier circumstances, we know he’s telepathically enthralled Force users and purged two incarnations of the Dark Council and may have mentally ensnared the Sith Lords on Medriaas before the ritual began.
Unaided, we know Sidious overpowered three of the finest swordsmen in the Jedi Order, defeated and deflected attacks from hundreds of adversaries each in conjunction with Plagueis, curbstomped Darth Maul and Savage Opress combined, overpowered Starkiller, and reduced three Sith acolytes to ash and slain dozens of treacherous stormtroopers with Force lightning. Additionally, we know that he is capable of loosing world-killing Force storms “with mere thought and inclination.” On a dark side nexus, he’s disintegrated lightsabers, shrugged off the crushing impact of a ton of machinery, overpowered Luke Skywalker and used the dark side to break his will. Ritually, we know he radiated unnerving ripples in the Force, incited anxiety among most Jedi throughout the galaxy, and increase Anakin Skywalker’s bloodlust; on similar grounds, he and Plagueis tipped the balance of the Force to the dark side through meditation. Under murkier circumstances, we know he mentally subjugated the twenty billion inhabitants of the planet Byss and transformed it from a nascent world to one of the strongest dark side sites in the galaxy; he was able to use his “mind-fogging powers” to assist Imperial engineers in the burial of a star dreadnought on Coruscant; as well as cloud the collective vision of ten thousand Jedi Knights for over a decade.
If an advantage exists for Vitiate, I’m not seeing a clear and decisive one that would reflect “exponentially greater” mastery of the Force.
3/3
Sorry for the lack of paragraph breaks, I went through and divided up the text wall.
Vitiate also created and imprisoned hundreds of thousands of beasts and Sith Acolytes and Sith Lords in the Dark Temple on Dromund Kaas, he also forced Vodal Kressh, a powerful Sith Sorcerer and Alchemist, into another tomb on Athiss where he was forced to rest.
Sidious created the Chrysalides, Dark Side powered Rancors. He bestowed great power in the Dark Side upon his Sith Executors, increasing their Force sensitivity with a mere gesture. He bestowed his android Shadow Droids with the ability to touch the Dark Side. Like Vitiate and Vodal Kressh, Sidious drove the powerful Grand Jedi Master Yoda into exile on Dagobah, which did have a Dark Side Nexus in which Luke confronted an apparition resembling Vader.
They both displayed alchemical abilities and created monsters in their time. However, Sidious obviously had a greater possession of Sith and Jedi knowledge after conquering the galaxy and raiding billions of worlds of holocrons and scripts pertaining to lost and unfounded knowledge of the Force. Sidious could learn the secrets of the Nightsisters who's powers operated similarly to the Ones on Mortis, he could gather material from the Sorcerers of Rhand, this is possibly would gave him his powers in Dark Empire. He even found information from the Lost Tribe of the Sith.
A final indication of Sidious' greater knowledge was his Dark Side Compendium, a book which required the vastest knowledge in the Mythos to write, though he did not have time to finish it.
Sidious was the only Sith, and so all the power went to him, he also proved to be the most capable Sith of the Rule of Two, as each generation of Sith became more capable than the last by defeated their master and taking their place as Dark Lord of the Sith.
__________________ "Compounding these trickster aspects, the Joker ethos is verbally explicated as such by his psychiatrist, who describes his madness as "super-sanity." Where "sanity" previously suggested acquiescence with cultural codes, the addition of "super" implies that this common "sanity" has been replaced by a superior form, in which perception and processing are completely ungoverned and unconstrained"
Last edited by KillaKassara on Dec 27th, 2012 at 12:08 AM
Dec 26th, 2012 07:31 PM
