Ok then first off I want to congratulate both people on a good fought match. I'm sorry about some of the details of the battlefield not being as thorough as they should have been.
Anyways unto the match. I've been sitting here trying to think how best to approach explaining my decision.
I decided I will start with Deity and Emperor Speed first, and take the arguments based on how powerful each one is.
Deity
Where to start....hmmm.... I don't believe this guy is nearly Solar or even approaching anything close. I'm sorry but I hear infinite called out way too much in comics. I need some good physical feats as to whether or not Firestorm would have access to something even approaching the levels you are describing. Problem is you didn't have any.
I though you overall plan was good with Megan and such. It's just that one little hump that I think made you fall short, cause I have to question that. I do believe Firestorm would be amped for this match but nothing I would say that would give him anything above Trans level power.
Emperor Speed
I think this is the first match I've judged where I feel this character was fully challenged. Most people would simply state they had a problem, then Leo would utter his power meshing line and it would stop. It didn't just vanish in this one therefore I must include them in my decision.
First off the idea Leo used is sound. It is obvious that his character does have great knowledge of Speed and the Speedforce. It also very true he has a decent energy manipulator. Two problems were raised with this though.
One is that yes despite his knowledge he never in a combat situation was shown to tap into the speed force the way Flash could. Having good knowledge on something doesn't mean you can manipulate it.
Leo often used the thought that well even though Savitar hadn't directly influenced, Vulcan's power and Savitar's knowledge would let him d it anyways.
This is the point where the argument generally fades away, even if I did have some problems with it. Smuprh though didn't let it in this fight. Therefore I am forced to finally ask myself. Can Vulcan really do this. The answer I have come up with is no. Leo posed no good evidence showing that Vulcan can manipulate this kinda energy or force. I'm sorry but Omega level is not gonna cut it.
I still though believe that he will help some just not on the level you want.
Ok then so after this point my next move was going to revisit prep time and see how I felt my verdicts on the characters would effect both's prep. THIS IS THE POINT I STARTED TO HIT MY HEAD ON THE TABLE.
Well just like I did up above and go over both's.
Smurph's
I'm sorry but you got hit extremely hard in this one. Without the near abstract level I find most of your prep useless. I do think you could pull off a number of the tech, like PZ projectors, and transmutation side of things. Still I think you were really handicapped going in without your high power level.
So over all I feel you start off kinda where you were at resources wise but to a much, much lower degree.
Leo's
Despite me thinking he isn't as fast as he wants people to believe, there is no denying Leo show cased that Emperor Speed still have some juice to him. Enough that I believe the more intrinsic part of plans are go. Like the bombs, and the Adaptoids.
Seeing how that was what most of his plan centered on anyways I feel Leo started off as strong as before.
Now unto the battle.
I do feel that Deity could manipulate enough of the Big Bang energy to shield himself from being absolutely killed. I don't think the rest of his team fares as well.
The clincher for me though was telepathy. Leo contentiously presented it as a viable option for defeating Smurph. Even showing scans where Firestorm was dominated by Thinker. You never really countered this IMO to the point where I was comfortable in saying it wasn't something I should take into account.
Well, since it looks like no other judges are going to vote any time soon, and not to draw this out any longer than is necessary, I guess I'll post a "concise" version of my judgment.
Reason (semi concise version): I felt Leo's argument against Deity was lacking due to his attempts to hammer home the points of Firestorm somehow not being allowed more power by Maya, the various consciousnesses within the Matrix somehow becoming an issue without precedent, and FS being powered by the Sun in an attempt to undermine Firestorm's powers, then Leo arguing against Meggan being able to handle Firestorm's powers in spite of the fact Meggan and Firestorm are amalgamated, meaning Firestorm would still be controlling his own powers, Meggan would just alleviate his physical limitations and also provide an amp to his elemental abilities [this line of argument kind of got thrown back in Leo's face with Smurph's argument about Vulcan being able to manipulate motion despite being amalgamated with Savitar, but due to amalgamation, I personally didn't pay it much heed, as Vulcan's ability to manipulate kinetic energy/motion is grounded in his amalgamation with Savitar, who has shown the ability to lend and steal speed on panel].
In spite of all of the supposition and arguments made in regards to the two big guns (Emperor Speed and Deity), the main issue I found was that Smurph's team made a b-line out of the prison cube whereas Leo's team just sat and waited for the 10 minutes to expire, which gives me reason to believe Smurph would strike first despite the fact that Leo is likely immensely faster.
I felt Newjak needed to be a bit more in depth in his descriptions of the battlefield's properties and that led to a lot of the prep being tossed out, but he did actually specify that both teams were at opposite ends of the moon sized prison cubes:
and that the prisons were analogous to a giant Borg Cube:
And Borg Cube hulls are exposed to space and are not solid as shown in this image:
(please log in to view the image)
Newjak didn't specify the location of access ports, docking bays, etc., or give a detailed layout of the prison, so it's pretty much a guessing game as to whether Smurph's team of superheroes could escape a defunct and completely unlocked prison in 10 minutes, but I believe he likely could given that Newjak placed both teams at the ends/edges/outskirts of the cube and not in the middle (assuming that was his actual intent. He didn't specify...).
So, my simplified vote is based on the fact that I do believe a group of superheroes could escape an abandoned, unmanned, unguarded, defunct, unlocked prison with a titanium hull that is constantly being bombarded by shards of adamantium and vibranium traveling at 3/4s the speed of light within 10 minutes, and I also believe Leo's team could do the same, but he never stated that his team would attempt to do so, much to my bewilderment, and just waited for the time to expire, during which Smurph could kill Leo's depowered team before time expired.
There were a lot of other things I took into consideration as well, but I'm trying not to be too long winded (though I already have been).
Okay, I read through this thing several times. Both teams were fast, powerful, teched up, had huge arsenals, p zone projectors, n zone projectors, cosmic awareness in some fashion, hyper thought, etc, etc, etc. Both Leo and Smurph had to amend their initial prep and that didn't seem to matter much. Both stuck to their plans.
These matches can be difficult to judge, let alone participate. I'm not going to explain my decision point by point. It's after midnight here and this match was hell to read through. I found both teams surprisingly even. But one reoccurring thought in my head was Smurph's team seemed better shielded for any attack. I bought his abilities to transmute energy and matter. Whether bombs exploding inside, outside with the crazy battlefield, energy weapons or TP, I believe Smurph's team had the edge.
Doctor Hackenbush, Ha-son, Batdude and Digimark007, both Leo and Smurph have done a very good job in this tourny and deserve a decision. If you can't or won't vote then please contact one of the tourny hosts so a replacement can be found.
Red's been banned and I already talked to newjak. Finding a replacement is hard, because nobody wants to get thrown into the finals without having followed the tourney, since we 7 were the primary judges throughout its entirety.
But I've explained myself in brief on this thread, and at length via PM. If anyone wishes to here my full justification, PM me. But I do apologize to all involved, as I realize the importance of the finals, and also the importance of prompt judging. But while I trust myself to be unbiased in any circumstance and play no favorites, I feel compromised as a judge through recent events as a mod, which must come first. So my continued non-vote is out of respect for the participants, not out of neglect, and comes again with my sincere apologies.
I will continue to loook for a suitable and willing replacement. Any help would also be appreciated, but is not expected.
As much as anyone. When I PMd him initially he had read the opening few posts just on his own.
But anyone who versed in tourneys can come in, maybe ask a question or two to get things straight, then make an informed decision. Hell, I've only judged 1 other match this tourney. Passively following the rest, but I haven't been reading every match. I don't feel like that hamstrings me at all, so long as I understand the format. But as long as he understands the rules (he does) there's no reason any of us with ample comic knowledge can't be a reliable judge. I wouldn't have gotten him as a replacement if I didn't think he'd be fine.
Congrats to both participants. This was a really tough match to judge.
Leo's prep was superior, but he lost major ground by not being able to support all of his plans for Emperor Speed, and most of his arguments concerning Deity seemed loose and largely based on wording.
I found it feasible that Smurph received enough power in order to at least trump Leo and negate most of the attacks quite well, and Sage's mind gave Smurph the quickdraw advantage (in addition to possibly a base speed advantage through kryptonian ability and super tech, not even approaching speed manipulation) that he could use to pull off the win.
I think Smurph's defenses are overall superior and that Leo's is lacking. However, Leo's strat was good because it was more grounded in fact than Smurph, but Eel's risk payed off in the end.
My Vote: Smurph
__________________
Jason says:
what am I supposed to do?
Jon says:
clean your apt before she moves in? buy some pink bed sheets? scented candles?
Jason says:
wait, u have pink bed sheets?
Jon says:
ive said too much
Oh my f*cking God @ how hard this match was to judge. Seriously, you both did a fantastic job, and nobody came out looking "superior" in this debate. Awesome.
Anyway, on with the show...
The idea of deity was a little far-fetched in my opinion. However, I get the concept, in theory. And in theory, it was a rather good plan... But there's one major flaw with it: Firestorm's power, or however much he chooses to use, is based on his WILL POWER. He has "unlimited power" in the same fashion that a Green Lantern has "unlimited power"- which is based on will. The idea of his power being based on how much the human body can withstand made me chuckle a bit. In the first place, a human body can't handle absorbing nukes, let alone all the other crazy shit Firestorm has been shown to do. Durability is not an issue in this case. Unless Meggan can amp a person's will power to "infinite levels," I'd say the idea of "Deity" is a bust.
Now, on to Emperor Speed... Leo, I strongly feel that you were overestimating the speeds that Savitar is capable of. He isn't > instantaneous speed.
However, in terms of evidence provided, you proved to me that Emperor Speed is faster (Vulcan withstanding... it was really a moot point all match) which is all that matters.
Leo has stuck firmly to his guns throughout the entire match. Smurph on the other hand, has had to slightly alter his attack plan at key points during the match. This shows me that leo was more on the offensive than Smurph.
Overall, I'd say that after looking at the prep plans, Smurph relied too heavily on the concept of Deity, which I really didn't go for. Leo on the other hand proved he had the speed advantage (at least in my mind) and also showed telepathic vulnerability on the side of Smurph's team. And while the big bang blasts MIGHT not work, I could see Leo's other strategies working, however.
My vote goes to: leonidas
Congratulations to both on making it this far.
__________________ Poppa's comin home to sling some dick.
Ok, where to begin, I'd like to thank the participants for being patient with my voting, for I was banned for a period of three days, for some reason couldn't wait until at least saturday...*ahem* I would have voted sooner, but I had to reread the thread once more simply for the fact that it had been 3 days since I last read it, albeit, not the whole thing at the time. I'd like to thank all the participants who saw the tourney out, for truly this Magical Mystery Tourney was truly greater, magical-er, and Mysterious-er than all it's tourney Predecessors(And I surely hope I'm not banned/warned for that claim ) NOW, onto reasoning of who earns my vote, for truly, this wasn't an easy match, and I've taken a great amount of time to choose my vote delicately, for it decides who might win(Smurph) and who might be one step closer into tieing it(Leo). For as it stands right now, the tourney is 3-1, with several judges not yet voting.
First off, Leo, your prep was mind blowing, it was some of your rebuttals to smurph's posts that might have taken longer in my judging, because there were quite a few grammatically and spelling errors. But your arguments were good, and convincing. Your big bang argument was convincing, and I was more convinced over your argument of Smurph not really being able to contain it, than I was of his talking about avoiding it, and such. All in all, you're a convincing debater, but alas, so is Smurph. Smurph's biggest advantage was the telepathy of Jor-el and Reed Richards, and it was increasingly difficult for me to find ways to see how Leo could win...
But My decision and why.
I vote for: [SPOILER - highlight to read]: Leonidas
It was far from an easy decision, I had to reread the second page a few times, but it came to the point where I felt that Smurph was scrambling a bit to come up with an argument to some of Leo's points, and they felt more forced and condescending than Leo's who rebutted to each one of smurph's claims, with a scan or an actual point that justified himself. By the way, it was cute that you both kept trying to convince the judges through your posts. Smurph your prep was straight up towered by Leo's, and it hurt you from the getco, now granted your argument was phenomenal. The Big Bang Leo's teams presented absolutely wrecked Smurph, and also, there were arguments Leo presented that I couldn't help but think that you intentionally avoided, IE Firestorm being mind raped...Deity didn't sell me, you invested way to much into the concept, and frankly it might have hurt you in the long run...Leo, you were a bit to much of a salesman with Salvitar...but you proved to me that you were faster, and Smurph didn't prove to me that he could stop that.
OK, to end this rant, it was impossibly time-consuming to read, you two are among the pick of the liter of KMC's debaters. Congratulations on making it this far...
KMC Community Forums
Jul 12th, 2008 03:23 AM
Seriously, you both did a fantastic job, and nobody came out looking "superior" in this debate. Awesome.
) NOW, onto reasoning of who earns my vote, for truly, this wasn't an easy match, and I've taken a great amount of time to choose my vote delicately, for it decides who might win(Smurph) and who might be one step closer into tieing it(Leo). For as it stands right now, the tourney is 3-1, with several judges not yet voting.
