You're acting like most people don't already take Surfer's powers to the max in almost every thread he's in... Same with Hulk, Flash, Sentry, Thor, etc. etc. etc.
I don't know why we would assume that a base power, like speed, would be completely off the table in a match like this..? Especially when SO many leaps are being made for WH here without any hesitation.
That's not intangibility, imo. That's superspeed. Superman is leaving an afterimage.
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Last edited by Galan007 on Feb 27th, 2019 at 12:52 PM
I'm really not sure how anything I said regarding Superman using his speed for basic self-preservation is getting twisted into stuff like this:
But I digress...
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"I am tired of Earth. These people.
I am tired of being caught in the tangle of their lives."
Last edited by Galan007 on Feb 27th, 2019 at 12:53 PM
Gender: Male Location: Planning to take over the WORLD!
i sent messages to phil and ds already, maybe i should have sent to galan too. i'm really not trying to stir sh!t up but i find the discussion very interesting. i was sort of fumbling around trying to make a clear point, but i think i finally figured it out after reading some of this.
no one--at least not me--is definitely standing there willing to be stabbed. i don't think it would be out of the question however--not because he was willing to be stabbed, but rather because he may very think he wouldn't be hurt. if, as has been brought up, we use basic knowledge, he would know nothing at all about wh since the public at-large doesn't even he exists.
by the same token, i'm unsure wh would even attack with his claws at the outset. he WOULD know more about superman here though, and that would be an advantage. i also stated in the OP that we assume wh has the full range of powers he is potentially supposed to have.
ANYWAY--my overall point: on kmc we're supposed to argue the CHARACTERS, not the power sets. IMHO, i think we should then FOCUS on character. i really do think we should define IN-CHARACTER, clearly. my opinion on what should define IN CHARACTER? whatever it is they are most likely to do in a battle BASED ON COMICS. REGARDLESS OF PERCEIVED PIS. as i've said, i think PIS can be explained in many cases.
that would mean superman would never start a battle seeing anyone as a statue. likewise, flash doesn't start fights at lightspeed. why? because in comics they don't. can they alter the way their powers are used as a battle progresses and in response to attacks? OF COURSE. would superman get cut here, then start to use his speed more effectively? of course. would he suddenly see wh as a statue? debatable but maybe. would ss enter a battle intangible and opening black holes behind peoples' eyes? certainly not, nor would he be likely to do so at ANY point in a match. maybe not even if he were about to die.
this approach would also still leave room for PIS. superman still isn't getting ko'd by a gas station.... but it would heavily MITIGATE the need to rely on PIS and allow for a more....balanced and comic-based/comic-oriented style of battle/debate. at least imo. i could be wrong of course. it would AT LEAST prevent some of the haxx abilities from being exploited in arguments.
at the end of the day, i think if we claim to be character-based in our approach, then shouldn't we focus MORE on character, and less on PIS and "powers"? a clear definition for IN CHARACTER would really help imo.
My problem with this particular thread is the assumption that WH has access to the full range of his abilities taken to their absolute max(even though we've never seen it on panel), but Superman won't even use his speed defensively for some reason.
__________________
"I am tired of Earth. These people.
I am tired of being caught in the tangle of their lives."
The problem that I [and I'm sure Galan and the rest, too, have] is that we're using something that is common sense [i.e. use speed to not get hit], and it's somehow not obvious that's what he would do, when it takes the minimum of intelligence. It is, quite literally, the most basic usage of power. It would be the equivalent of Surfer keeping the distance against Hulk by use his board maneuverability.
Surfer opening black holes in people's brains [that he never showed himself as able to do, only talked about, btw], would be the equivalent of Superman listening to multiversal harmonics and counter-frequency-ing people out of existence. And Superman has actually done it.
Surfer transmuting opponents [that you have used -- specifically recently in the Apoc runs the gauntlet [with Surfer in it] thread, for example] would be closer to Superman starting to lobotomize opponents with his heat vision [as he has done, against Black].
They are not the equivalent of Superman thinking "I better not get touched", and then using his basic, base power of "I'm fast" to not do so. Nobody is arguing that he scans him with X-Ray and starts a speedblitz pressure point fest [that he has done, btw].
etc.
There's lines that we draw [well, except the obvious posters, but everybody ignores them].
I think the most simple way to put this, is we should always ask "would a 10 year old fight this way?"
If the answer is yes, then that's the bare minimum the character would do.
And then we can move on from there, and apply what the characters knows and can do and argue for it.
But we must agree on a baseline [in this case "getting hit is bad. using speed so that attacks don't touch me is good"], otherwise we have no starting point.
And, as I have said before - speed is basic, and it is broken. If it was a complex part of a versatile powerset, it would be easier to argue against. If it was something that could be resisted, it would be easier to argue against. Even moreso, when we're only talking about "not get hit" - none of the vibrate intangible/invisible/speedblitzs into paste" stuff.
But it's not. And it can't.
And we're left with threads in which logic has to be taken to the river and drowned, in order to make it fair.
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Last edited by Philosophía on Feb 27th, 2019 at 01:45 PM
I asked that question on page 1, and NOBODY has answered me. Are we crossing feats and taking Domino's highest luck feats, stacking it onto Wolverine's highest agility feats, with Hulk's highest speed feats, on top of Sabes and Warpath? Is that how it works?
If we move on, it boils down to two questions.
1. How fast is 'base' Superman? You lot are saying he's not at his highest peaks, OK. What does he start with in fights where he's serious? Not trying to talk his opponent down, not trying to challenge himself, he's trying to win (as with all characters). Is he Lois Lane level? If a random geriatric DCU lady is given strength and a set of adamantium claws, does she tag him? Alfred? Penguin? Batman?
At what level does Superman enter a match?
2. How fast is Weapon H?
An addendum question (because I can't count): at what speed level does Weapon H enter a match?
It's not like I'm saying that Supes would use T-vo, Solar Flares, anti-harmonic frequencies, instant lobotomy, infinite strength, etc. to rape WH within the first attosecond of the battle. Hell, you don't even have to believe that Superman would use the full extent of his speed here, and/or straight up blitz WH into oblivion at the onset.
...But it seems really illogical to assume that he wouldn't at least use *enough* speed to avoid potentially lethal strikes from his opponent in a forum setting. /shrug
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"I am tired of Earth. These people.
I am tired of being caught in the tangle of their lives."
Last edited by Galan007 on Feb 27th, 2019 at 02:11 PM
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