That's correct,
but you're lying about me demeaning the abilities of the Future Doom,
if you're gonna shout my name out, be sure and be thorough,
I despise lies perpetrated just to get a virtual nut rub by the invisibles.
In fact, I clearly said:
I have never said 616 Doom was incapable of the same feat,
in fact, of course he was, for it is his future-self.
All I've ever presented is the fact that, at the time of Secret Wars I, that Doom was from an alternate Timeline.
Gender: Male Location: somewhere within time & space
It's definitely untrue, I'll tell ya why, cause I never called Future Doom a "schlub"
Future Doom,
like ALL Future-selves of ALL 616 characters,
are exactly the same as their 616 Present-selves.
The only difference, for 616, history is stationed in the Present,
in the entire 616 Universe there is but one planet Earth
in that one planet Earth, it the present day, 2008.
For the Future-self, whether it's a minute or 100 to whatever years into the Future,
in which case let's say it's, 2009, or 2099,
those Time periods apply to a planet Earth,
located in an entire Universe relevant to 2009, or 2099.
Thus another Timeline.
It's cool, once the 616 Universe's planet Earth reaches the year 2009 or 2099,
the Future-Timeline and the 616 Universe diverge into different directions,
thus the Future-Timelne takes off on a History of it's own,
and 616 continues to be the original Timeline.
Gender: Male Location: somewhere within time & space
Because Future Doom died before the Present he was plucked from was reached.
Oh, and you're putting words in my mouth again, I never demeaned Future Doom's skills.
I don't know where you got this allusion I took em for a schlub,
but let's not get nasty to win over a crowd.
Never called Future Doom a schlub or any other devaluing term,
in fact, I always said it was Doom from the Future,
and like all Marvel comic Futures, it was an alternate-Timeline,
two Universes can not occupy the same Time period,
either you're in the Universe representing 9/19/08,
or you're in the Universe representing 9/19/10-100-infinity.
It's still you're 616 self in the Future though, just technically,
you're Future -self is in another TImeline, why? Cause he's in the Future.
Gender: Male Location: somewhere within time & space
Of course it's Reed's Future, who's else is it gonna be?
It's everyone's Future in 616,
just like 616 & Reed's Future will also be the year 3014 when 616 reaches it,
but, if 616 Reed travels to the year 3014, he'll be entering a different Timeline.
Seem that's the bottom line.
Secret Wars I
(at the time it was the Present)
happened almost a year before #288,
(which was the Future, another Timeline at the time)
so when that year came around, #288
(which was the Future, another Timeline)
became the Present
(the 616 Timeline)
The problem is,
when the Present came around, there was no Secret Wars Doom in existence,
cause he was obliterated at the end of Secret Wars I.
Had Secret Wars Doom stayed alive,
then Timestream would have been in NO danger,
because the instant the Time period Beyonder plucked Doom from arrived,
a divergence would've taken place, a split in Reality
where Secret Wars Doom continues into an separate history in an alternate future,
and where 616 Doom, who was in McArthur's body, continues into 616's direct Future.
This is how the whole deal concerning the Future in Marvel Comics works.
Gender: Male Location: somewhere within time & space
Nah, 616 Doom was banished to the Past, but Beyonder created a circle in time,
so that he would return to this Present,
since this Present was the Future he took took the original Secret Wars Doom from.
Also, you missed the part in that scan where Reed clearly differentiates the two:
Now why do you think Reed labels 616 Doom the "banished" Doom,
insetad of just calling him Doom?
Answer:
Because the original Secret Wars Doom (Future Doom) was obliterated across time & space,
uhh, Reed even states it in the freakin scan,
but the banished Doom (616) never died, in fact, he was never even there originally,
but since he's the template, he can fill in for the original Secret Wars Doom,
play out everything that happened in Secret Wars 1 exactly to the T,
even getting obliterated like the original Secret Wars Doom,
but then like Reed says, to finalize the closing of the circle,
616 Doom (unlike the original Secret Wars Doom who was utterly destroyed) now has to return to Present, "to fill the space thus created"
What space was that?
The space left by the original Secret Wars Doom (plucked from the Future)
who destroyed before the point from which he was plucked became the Present.
This is why Reed said: "events now in our past, have yet to happento Doctor Doom"
If it was always Doom 616, then why hasn't he experienced these events?
No need to answer that, I already have.
__________________
Last edited by Mr Master on Sep 19th, 2008 at 08:00 PM
Splicing such complicated DNA together can surely be thought of as being more complicated than siphoning, isolating or transferring the Power Cosmic. But IMHO, Doom did something that Thanos could not do, no matter how hard he tried. And that was siphoning, isolating and transferring the Power Cosmic.
Doom has stolen Silver Surfer's power by force. Silver Surfer willingly gave a Doombot the Power Cosmic in another storyline. You've got the feats mixed up. I didn't use a double-standard.
TOAA gave Thanos the power. There are no ifs, ands or buts about that.
Once my laptop is in order (I just got the power cord today) and I have time this week to download the comic I've been alluding to, I will prove to you that Dr. Doom could handle Beyonder's power, had he a second chance. I don't know why I didn't pull it out for the respect thread I've been creating, but I forgot to. The only power Doom failed to hold onto, was the Beyonder's power. Which is equal to or greater than THOTU. Doom's handled Surfer's power, Galactus' power and the Cosmic Cube. He hasn't had the chance to acquire the Infinity Gauntlet. Although, previews of upcoming comics suggest that he will.
I have no idea what you're talking about. Fantastic Four #288 made it clear that 616 Doom was the only Doom in Secret Wars. Beyonder was prevented from killing Doom then because Doom had yet to partake in Secret Wars in his own linear progression of time. Killing Doom before he could travel back would have destroyed history, the space-time continuum, time itself and destroyed Beyonder. That's why Reed convinced Beyonder not to kill him and that's why it was always 616 Doom. If some schlub 212-Doom had already performed in Secret Wars, there was no reason 616 Doom couldn't have been killed on the spot as revengefor beating him the first time.
Regardless of whether you want it, the answer to your question is: Because 616-Doom had yet, in his own linear progression of time, to experience those events. SW Beyonder + SWII Beyonder working together to bring 616-Doom into Secret Wars allowed him to go through those events, Doom's future, Beyodner's past. Hence, time-loop. By closing that time loop, history was preserved and so was the space-time continuum.
If 616 Doom was killed right then and there in that room in FF #288, SWII Beyonder would have destroyed history and thus himself. The reason why history would have been destroyed was because 616 Doom was in Secret Wars. If there were a 212-Doom originally, then history had run it's course with 212-Doom already. There was a Doom there. You didn't need 616-Doom. Thus, there would also be no danger to history or the space-time continuum if SWII Beyonder killed 616-Doom in FF #288. But as we cannot deny, there was a danger to history's events, the space-time continuum if 616-Doom were killed. That danger was present, because 616-Doom had to be sent back so that he could play out his own future, which was already their past. This is stated by Reed in plain black and white. Thus, there was never an alternate Doom.
I explained it for everyone else. You refuse to see it my way, that's fine. You can keep your opinion. I recognize that you base it completely on Marvel's psuedo-science alternate universe theory. But I prefer to base my interpretation on primary evidence; on the plain meaning and presentation of Reed and Beyonder's on-panel conversations and actions in Fantastic Four #288.
Dude,he created a more powerful version of Galactus. Thats better than isolating the power cosmic. Thanos coul dhave b een able to do this as well,but he abandoned his efforts the moment he figured out Annihilus' true intentions. Omega>power cosmic by leaps and bounds. Thanos clones>power cosmic as well imo.
I kniw about the doombot one in the surfer comic. I read the real doom taking Surfer's power and wasnt he tricked due to his naivete at the time into trusting Doom. Im pretty sure he was.
No,Thanos still survived and it wasnt handed to him. Anyway you want to look at it though,Thanos was chosen and not Doom. What does that tell you if you believe the TOAA gave it to him and not Victor.
I dont know where you are getting that the beyonder's power is greater or equal to Thanos' heart of the universe. Anyways,Doom hanlded the power cosmic and Galactus' power which is far less than the ig. Thanos' history consists of him finding these power sources and utilizing them first. Its about time Doom gets his hands on the ig. Thanos has already moved on and acquired the most powerful items in the multiverse imo.
I saw mr m's scans I dont know how your still trying to pass it off as Doom when his scans tell an entirely different story. Again if we do give the feat to Doom,he still isnt in Thanos' league.
Doom gained his power in secret wars through sheer planning and preperation, Thanos was literally handed THOU...althought Ill still give him credit for the IG capture even if everyone else was acting like ****ing idiots.
Gender: Male Location: Drinking gasoline. Pissing napalm.
Heh. I don't know if this has already been brought up before, because I've only read pages 1, 2, and 7 of this thread - but Thanos runs constant surveillance on Dr. Doom which Doom is obviously completely unaware of (this is shown, for instance, in Marvel: The End). It doesn't matter, then, each of them have two days prep, a week prep, or a year prep - Thanos' plan will always be superior thanks to his more advanced tech and his insider advantage which his spying gives him.
Thanos wins this, every single time.
On a side note, Mr. M debates the coolest way possible - with lots and lots of scannage.
"Doom only barely survived that battle with the Beyonder. But Death, we had already learned was NOT the same force in that realm
as it had been at home"
2. The reason Doom is able to get close to the Beyonder in this stomped state,
is cause Beyonder was intricately studying his body with its torn limbs:
(I mean he's being dissected, half his body is being peeled by layers,
he was already missing one arm, one leg, other forearm, other chin)
Yet, he's still alive? ... ... like I said, surrounded by stipulations.
I also went over my Secret Wars I issues where Doom acquires the power,
Doom never had any relevant control,
he had to continuously concentrate on containing the energies,
imo, that's a very uncomfortable predicament of Godhood.
__________________
Last edited by Mr Master on Sep 23rd, 2008 at 07:55 PM
Quanchi112, don't be ridiculous. Your double-standards and wilful ignorance in this thread is nauseating. Go ahead and rest your laurels on creating Omega. Doom never tried to create a Galactus clone. We don't know if he'd succeed or not. What we do know is Doom has: 1) humbled Galactus twice, whereas Thanos got curbstomped; and 2) Doom succeeded in stripping, isolating and transferring the Power Cosmic, whereas Thanos with better tech, more time and help, completely failed. Thanos specifically tried to strip, isolate and transfer the Power Cosmic and could only make a Galactus Cannon. He stopped his attempts because he continually failed for weeks, it had nothing to do with Annihilus' betrayal. Reread Annihilation over again. In the end, you choose to weigh 1 success by Thanos in an area where Doom hasn't even attempted over 2 successes by Doom where Thanos completely falls short? Your cup of tea, but it's pathetic, ignorant logic.
Silver Surfer never gave Doom his power. Doom stole it from him.
Thanos was given THOTU by TOAA. He himself states this. Ignoring that basic truth of the story makes any further argumentation of yours moot.
Most, if not nearly all posters believe that pre-retcon Beyonder is equal to or superior to THOTU. Go to the Beyonder vs THOTU threads. Don't waste my time by feigning further ignorance.
You have no idea what you're talking about. Just because Mr Master weighed in, left and said he didn't care and then quad posted again in response to my posts means nothing. He is utterly wrong. It's plain as day in the full page scan I posted. Reed explains it. I don't cut up pages to interrupt the panel flow of a conversation that takes you step-by-step as to why SWII Beyonder couldn't kill 616-Doom (who hadn't met him yet) because it would have destroyed history, time and Beyonder. You're ignoring the clear, plain presentation of that and hiding behind a wrong theory because I've put you in that corner and you can't concede this simple point: "When Doom plays on the cosmic scale, he is arguably equal to or superior to Thanos in terms of pure feats."
You underestimated Doom. Most people make that mistake. Nothing to get in a twist about. But you did. Just move on. Nuff said.
If Thanos had really sophisticated spy tech Doom wouldn't have even spotted it. I mean Thanos has his pick of some of the most advanced alien tech from all over the universe and that's the best spy device he can come up with? I could buy him a less obvious kit on the internet. OK maybe it wouldn't fly.
I'm not sure any of it matters anyway since Marvel specifically stated this all this and Thanos getting the HOTI happened on Earth-4321 and not Earth-616.
KMC Community Forums
Sep 19th, 2008 07:49 PM
The essential force of reality
... like I said, surrounded by stipulations.
Sig by Inhuman
