Anakin tapping into the darkside and learning how to focus his anger isn't at all the same as being rage amped. Given that Anakin proceeds to grow more powerful afterwards, Knightfall would be Zonakin plus.
Though, yes, I'd agree Anakin wouldn't win a majority.
ILS, I felt that Ben Skywalker would be the one to get killed by Darth Krayt. Luke is simply too much of an OP, and besides, for story and authorial purposes, I probably wouldn't have a person with the potential of the Chosen One, in his prime( which presumably is after FOTJ), lose to literally any non-entity warrior. But Ben going down to Krayt in that way makes more sense. He probably would have gone down young. That is why there is no mention of him in the Legacy era comics, despite his age being enough for him to function as a grandfather to Cade, or something. Vestara would be involved in it too, and she would somehow be destroyed by Krayt as well. There is also the chance that Krayt manipulates her into killing Ben, and then destroys her.
Last edited by BlueTiger1144 on Sep 28th, 2017 at 08:23 PM
Good man, you? Cool, can't wait to see what kinda wank you can cook up. Well, it's just a quote I took from someone else which I found awesome and funny. But Krayt and his lieutenants fighting Luke in a 5-6v1 scenario would be badass to watch.
__________________ “The galaxy must experience the pain of death and the rapture of rebirth as I have. I will bring chaos. It is time for war.”
I'd wager everyone here watched the film, so of course, but this statement is just as pointless as, "Yoda is green," or "Palpatine is evil."
Irrelevant / Incorrect Point Counter: 1
I can't tell you how many times someone has made this same argument. I don't know how it's still being made in 2017.
Yes, Dooku had a specific goal he had to achieve (i.e. take out Obi-Wan while still handling Anakin). However, Dooku abandoned that goal early in the fight:
No sense taking chances; even his Master would agree with that. Lord Sidious could come up with a new plan more easilythan a new apprentice.
Irrelevant / Incorrect Point Counter: 2
Except it's not that Makashi is weak to Djem So - it's that Dooku's Makashi can't handle Anakin's Djem So.
In other words, Anakin is so much physically stronger than Dooku that Dooku cannot defend against Anakin's attacks.
Thus, you are effectively arguing, "well, Dooku might be able to perform better if Anakin wasn't so physically powerful."
Except Anakin is that physically powerful and that is relevant toward all of Anakin's performances, one versus Yoda included.
Irrelevant / Incorrect Point Counter: 3
Anakin is noted by Dooku to be mentally handicapped as Dooku teeters on unconsciousness.
On the flip side, the script is explicit that Yoda's attachment to Dooku is not preventing him from killing Dooku:
YODA jumps onto DOOKU'S shoulders, and is about to drive the lightsaber into the top of the Count's head.
The end for you, Count, this is.
COUNT DOOKU raises his arms and knocks YODA off his shoulders and then, with all his might, he uses the Force to pull on one of the cranes in the hanger.
So yes, indeed, comparing those two circumstances is flawed because neither circumstance exists.
Irrelevant / Incorrect Point Counter: 4
That's... actually irrelevant.
Anakin was dominating Dooku before his "burst of rage that was suppressed for years." Anakin as of Operation Knightfall is noted to be more powerful than, at the very least, that version. I will gladly discuss with you "Zonakin" versus "Operation Knightfall" Anakin, but let's do that after you concede to everything else since I don't want to have too many debates at once.
Not only have you provided no evidence toward this stance, but it directly contradicts George Lucas' own assessment of Anakin's abilities.
In other words, you're factually incorrect.
Irrelevant / Incorrect Point Counter: 5
Do you care to clarify this statement? Do you mean Anakin can't properly bring his abilities to bear?
"As Palpatine, he befriended Skywalker, becoming a close friend and a fatherly authority to a youthful warrior often confused by his seemingly boundless power and abilities he had at his disposal."
Disposal, of course, meaning that Anakin can use that power at his wish (in contrast to potential or capped power).
Or are you arguing that Anakin's confusion over his powers affects his capacity to unleash his powers?
As of Operation Knightfall, Anakin no longer has such restrictions - he shed them in his fight on the Invisible Hand:
And all for nothing, because a nuclear flame has consumed Anakin Skywalker's Jedi restraint, and fear becomes fury without effort, and fury is a blade that makes his lightsaber into a toy.
In other words, as far as I can tell, Anakin can properly harness his powers and bring them to bear in combat.
Irrelevant / Incorrect Point Counter: 6
Yet Obi-Wan Kenobi has stated that Anakin's mastery of the Force is just as great as Yoda's:
"Clearly Anakin was as strong in the Force as any Jedi who had ever sat on the Council. But as Obi-Wan had told him time and again, the essence of being a Jedi didn't hinge on attaining mastery of the Force, but on attaining mastery over oneself."
In this statement, the term "strong in the Force" is being used as synonymous with mastery, not raw power, as established with the text in red.
This quote is from Labyrinth of Evil, hence why Anakin does not yet have personal mastery like he does during Operation Knightfall.
Irrelevant / Incorrect Point Counter: 7
While Yoda vs Anakin might be rather one-sided in favor toward Anakin, it seems contradictory for you to suggest Sheev would fare even worse than Yoda.
__________________ "The Emperor had three-hundred years to break this man . . . and he never succumbed?"
Last edited by DarthAnt66 on Sep 29th, 2017 at 01:36 AM
Well I was gonna say good, but right when I got home life decided to bite me in the ass, that's why this post is so late. My bad--
--but now that I'm here, I'll do my best not to disappoint.
It doesn’t, and I won't use the word proof, but the evidence that he can maintain his 'Invisible Hand performance' is primarily in the scene itself. Before I can elaborate, though, I’ll need to clarify why Anakin became so powerful on the Invisible Hand, since there still seems to be some misconceptions about what happened.
First off, let's take a look at what we can (hopefully) all agree is a pretty standard performance on the part of early RotS Anakin:
From the passage above, we can surmise two things. One, that Anakin by his very nature is "gifted" with fury, to the point where he's almost Sith-like despite his best efforts. Two, that Anakin is deeply afraid of that fury, and that up until this point, Anakin has constantly held it back.
So what changed? Did his anger reach its boiling point and explode because of what Dooku did to him, or Obi-Wan, or Palpatine? No. The only thing that separated the duel on the Invisible Hand from any of Anakin's other fights was that he was given an excuse.
Now, let's take a look at how the book describes "Zonakin:"
What the text describes is Anakin releasing his mental restraints, which allows him to overcome the fears that chained him down, and use the built up anger from his past traumas as a weapon. The mere act of doing so gives him focus, and makes him stronger.
The 'Invisible Hand performance' wasn't the result of any sort of extraneous circumstances, but was rather just the turning point where Anakin started to accept his inner darkness instead of fearing it. Once he crossed that line, even well after the fight, Anakin felt far more powerful than ever before:
Now, the reason Knightfall Vader is so impressive is because, with all that in mind, the moment Anakin was named Darth Vader was when he completely embraced that darkness.
So as of Operation Knightfall, not only had Anakin completely unlocked his restraints and conquered his fear, clearing his mind of doubt like before, but his anger was even stronger than it was previously. In short, Knightfall Vader is literally Zonakin on steroids. Conversely, the reason he was weaker than Zonakin on Mustafar is because his anger started to fuel his fear, instead of his fear fueling his anger, which clouded his mind with doubt as he got angrier instead doing the opposite.
Knightfall > Invisible Hand > Mustafar
[SPOILER - highlight to read]: That's pretty much my line of though. Now, whether or not surpassing Zonakin makes KV stronger than Yoda or Sidious is another discussion entirely, although I’m willing to make that case too, if you’d like. Hit me up with a PM and we can chat about it at length sometime.
Last edited by NewGuy01 on Sep 29th, 2017 at 03:36 AM
Just below Yoda and Palps cause of Palpatine saying Anakin will be more powerful than them, indicating that he's below them. But hes super close to their level.
__________________ "Vader's pulse and breathing were machine-regulated, so they could not quicken; but something in his chest became more electric around his meetings with the Emperor; he could not say how. A feeling of fullness, of power, of dark and demon mastery -- of secret lusts, unrestrained passion, wild submission -- all these things were in Vader's heart as he neared his Emperor. These things and more."