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Home » Star Wars » Star Wars: Literature & Expanded Universe » Dooku and Palpatine/Yoda - is there parity in Force strength?


Dooku and Palpatine/Yoda - is there parity in Force strength?
Started by: Azronger

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Trocity
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That big pillar thing is called a crane?


There's way too many inconsistencies and conflicting sources lol.


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Old Post Oct 3rd, 2017 07:27 PM
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DarthAnt66
Last of the Jedi

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quote: (post)
Originally posted by ILS
Yoda's TK would be perfectly effective against Dooku, seeing as Sidious casually choked him across the galaxy, and casually pinned Maul and Savage: the way TK works in canon is you have a barrier, and that barrier can be broken with enough power (see Dooku's force push against Anakin and Obi-Wan, which they blocked). Yoda clearly has enough power, he just didn't retaliate with it, even though he had ample opportunity to.


No. Yoda couldn't be capable of TKing Dooku if he tried. You don't have a passive Force shield in Canon like in Legends.

If you're prepared for a telekinetic attack, you're going to resist it. If you're unprepared, you're going to be vulnerable.

It has next to nothing to do with power unless you're like Dooku and ripped Ventress' sabers from her hands or the difference in power is immense.


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Old Post Oct 3rd, 2017 07:29 PM
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ILS
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by ChocolateMuesli
i simply responded to your useless picture you posted, not how close dooku is to yoda

but no, yoda wouldnt hold back against ventress because he knows he's better, he would hold back because thats how the jedi operate. mace fought to capture sidious and not kill him because that's how it works, doesn't mean he didn't try as hard as possible to capture him.
So even if we forget the picture, and assume that Yoda had no conflict whatsoever about killing his old padawan, you're claiming that we've only ever seen Yoda go all out against Sidious.

Hence why Dooku lasted as long as he did. Besides, there the mitigating factor of Dooku knowing Yoda's preferred form, Ataru, inside and out due to sparring Qui-Gon thousands of times, as well as Yoda himself.


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Old Post Oct 3rd, 2017 07:32 PM
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ChocolateMuesli
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idg ur point lol dooku lasted for 30 sec against standard jedi yoda, good for him, why does that anger you

Old Post Oct 3rd, 2017 07:40 PM
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ILS
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by ChocolateMuesli
idg ur point lol dooku lasted for 30 sec against standard jedi yoda, good for him, why does that anger you
Ant is arguing Yoda went all out, like he did against Sidious, that Yoda's TK isn't going to affect Dooku in a fight etc


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Old Post Oct 3rd, 2017 07:42 PM
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ILS
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
No. Yoda couldn't be capable of TKing Dooku if he tried. You don't have a passive Force shield in Canon like in Legends.

If you're prepared for a telekinetic attack, you're going to resist it. If you're unprepared, you're going to be vulnerable.

It has next to nothing to do with power unless you're like Dooku and ripped Ventress' sabers from her hands or the difference in power is immense.
That's a nice opinion you got there. For my money, Yoda's TK would absolutely work against Dooku, considering he's a peer of Sidious, who would absolutely eviscerate Dooku with TK.


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—Darth Sidious

Old Post Oct 3rd, 2017 07:44 PM
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DarthAnt66
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by ILS
Ant is arguing Yoda went all out, like he did against Sidious, that Yoda's TK isn't going to affect Dooku in a fight etc

I said he wasn't going easy - not that he was fighting the same way as he was vs Sidious.

Lucas' right-hand said Yoda was treating Sidious differently than Dooku. That's echoed in Fact Files.


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Old Post Oct 3rd, 2017 07:44 PM
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DarthAnt66
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by ILS
That's a nice opinion you got there. For my money, Yoda's TK would absolutely work against Dooku, considering he's a peer of Sidious, who would absolutely eviscerate Dooku with TK.

In Legends? Agreed. In Canon, I don't think Sidious is TKing even Kenobi straight-up.

There's way too many examples of lesser Force-users TKing greater Force-users.

> Asajj suspends Anakin, Obi-Wan in a Force choke.
> Savage suspends Dooku, Asajj in a Force choke.
> Maul suspends Sidious in a Force choke (DS).
> Vader suspends Sidious in a Force choke.

I don't see how beings have a passive Force barrier.


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Old Post Oct 3rd, 2017 07:45 PM
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ILS
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I said he wasn't going easy - not that he was fighting the same way as he was vs Sidious.

Lucas' right-hand said Yoda was treating Sidious differently than Dooku. That's echoed in Fact Files.
Well yeah, we basically agree then. Yoda's a Sidious-level duelist when he's going all out, otherwise you get what you get with the Dooku fight - Yoda not trying his hardest. If you want to call that "going easy" "treating Dooku differently" or whatever, phrase it however you like.


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—Darth Sidious

Old Post Oct 3rd, 2017 07:46 PM
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DarthAnt66
Last of the Jedi

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quote: (post)
Originally posted by ILS
Well yeah, we basically agree then. Yoda's a Sidious-level duelist when he's going all out, otherwise you get what you get with the Dooku fight - Yoda not trying his hardest. If you want to call that "going easy" "treating Dooku differently" or whatever, phrase it however you like.

My line of thinking is different.

Yoda treats Dooku normally. Yoda treats Sidious differently.

Rather than the reverse, which gives a different impression.


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Old Post Oct 3rd, 2017 07:48 PM
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Haschwalth
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by ILS
Well yeah, we basically agree then. Yoda's a Sidious-level duelist when he's going all out, otherwise you get what you get with the Dooku fight - Yoda not trying his hardest. If you want to call that "going easy" "treating Dooku differently" or whatever, phrase it however you like.


Eh, above Sidious level.

Old Post Oct 3rd, 2017 07:48 PM
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ILS
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
In Legends? Agreed. In Canon, I don't think Sidious is TKing even Kenobi straight-up.

There's way too many examples of lesser Force-users TKing greater Force-users.

> Asajj suspends Anakin, Obi-Wan in a Force choke.
> Savage suspends Dooku, Asajj in a Force choke.
> Maul suspends Sidious in a Force choke (DS).
> Vader suspends Sidious in a Force choke.

I don't see how beings have a passive Force barrier.
So what is the basis for Sidious not being able to affect Obi-Wan with TK?


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“There are aspects of who we are that can only be revealed to us in the deepest pit of intolerable suffering, in those moments when all else is torn away—when we stand at the very brink of eternity itself and stare death in the face.”
—Darth Sidious

Old Post Oct 3rd, 2017 07:48 PM
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ILS
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
My line of thinking is different.

Yoda treats Dooku normally. Yoda treats Sidious differently.

Rather than the reverse, which gives a different impression.
If by differently you mean, trying harder than ever to kill someone, you betcha.


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“There are aspects of who we are that can only be revealed to us in the deepest pit of intolerable suffering, in those moments when all else is torn away—when we stand at the very brink of eternity itself and stare death in the face.”
—Darth Sidious

Old Post Oct 3rd, 2017 07:49 PM
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ILS
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I get your point Ant: you want to create a comparison between Yoda and Anakin vs Dooku, to bump KF Vader above Yoda. But it's an unfair comparison for Yoda for a number of reasons, one of which is the fact Yoda wasn't fighting at the same level as he was against Sidious, whereas, Anakin was trying harder than ever to kill Dooku. There's also the matter of styles altering the outcome of fights.


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“There are aspects of who we are that can only be revealed to us in the deepest pit of intolerable suffering, in those moments when all else is torn away—when we stand at the very brink of eternity itself and stare death in the face.”
—Darth Sidious

Old Post Oct 3rd, 2017 07:51 PM
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ILS
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It's funny seeing how Ant changed his tune from the second page of this thread. laughing out loud


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“There are aspects of who we are that can only be revealed to us in the deepest pit of intolerable suffering, in those moments when all else is torn away—when we stand at the very brink of eternity itself and stare death in the face.”
—Darth Sidious

Old Post Oct 3rd, 2017 07:56 PM
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DarthAnt66
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by ILS
So what is the basis for Sidious not being able to affect Obi-Wan with TK?

Because we've never seen anyone do that to anyone in Canon... ever?

Sidious would have ragdolled Maul later in the fight though. He didn't - he waited until after he disarmed him.

quote:
I get your point Ant: you want to create a comparison between Yoda and Anakin vs Dooku, to bump KF Vader above Yoda. But it's an unfair comparison for Yoda for a number of reasons, one of which is the fact Yoda wasn't fighting at the same level as he was against Sidious, whereas, Anakin was trying harder than ever to kill Dooku. There's also the matter of styles altering the outcome of fights.


Truly, the word "Anakin" never crossed my mind this entire conversation except in the context of (edit) TCWS6. You're becoming far too paranoid.

I'll gladly debate with you Anakin and Yoda's respective performances vs Dooku, in which Anakin's is better and that can be reasonably concluded, but that's not really what we're discussing here, is it?


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Old Post Oct 3rd, 2017 07:57 PM
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twotter
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There's two ways to mitigate the Yoda/Dooku conundrum Imo.

1) Yoda can't physiologically bring himself to bare his full might against the Count

2) Yoda, after decades of relative training dormancy, grew stronger during the Clone Wars, like the other centre stage Jedi at that time

Yoda is a tier 9, Dooku is a tier 8, and unlike Mace he isn't teetering on the edges. There is is supposedly an order of magnitude between their powers, or at the very least a decisive gap. Dooku would probably retreat against a fresh B-team, Sidious can blitz them.


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Last edited by twotter on Oct 3rd, 2017 at 08:06 PM

Old Post Oct 3rd, 2017 07:57 PM
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DarthAnt66
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Addressed everything else above, ILS.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by ILS
It's funny seeing how Ant changed his tune from the second page of this thread. laughing out loud

You mean, it's funny how Ant changed his opinion after a year?

Uh, not really. That happens.


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Old Post Oct 3rd, 2017 07:57 PM
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DarthAnt66
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by ILS
If by differently you mean, trying harder than ever to kill someone, you betcha.


Not really. Vs Sidious, his moves were far more precise, more deliberate, more conservative.

That doesn't necessarily mean trying harder - it means fighting differently to fight a different opponent.

Vs Dooku, he's far more liberal to do whatever he wants because the threat of Dooku harming him is less.

When Yoda crosses sabers with the movie's arch-villain, he doesn't launch into a pinwheeling display of acrobatics, as he did against Count Dooku in Episode II. Instead, Yoda faces the dark side's fury, channeled by the most powerful Sith Lord in history. "Rob Coleman wanted Yoda to feel the power of his enemy," says Wheless, "like a force he's never dealt with before."


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Last edited by DarthAnt66 on Oct 3rd, 2017 at 08:05 PM

Old Post Oct 3rd, 2017 08:03 PM
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Darth Thor
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In Canon it usually comes down to speed and outduelling your opponent to catch them off guard with a TK attack.

Old Post Oct 3rd, 2017 08:35 PM
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