Registered: May 2007
Location: Best company on the planet
Evidenece says otherwise. Sidious isn’t didn’t even have knowledge as Snoke had despite his vast resources. None of this is fake. He vastly outclassed Rey’s whose power made Luke lose his balance and fall down. He previously was scared of how strong she was. High praise from Luke. Snoke is the top dog with Luke second place.
Registered: May 2007
Location: Best company on the planet
Snoke is more powerful than Sidious and even had knowledge he never attained. Get over it your post has no relevance here. Just incoherence on full display.
Just for the record, Galan, I just asked for one feat.
I shouldn't have given you the "I admit there's no feat based reason to think Snoke is superior" excuse to leave. But I'll accept that we're done here. I would've liked to see my other points adressed, and you've done nothing to convince me that anything I said was wrong, but I'm sure this isn't the end of all discussion based around Snoke's powers.
The truth is, there's little enough information on some of these characters that you could make the argument you're making, but you could just as easily make the argument I'm making. And I guess the only reason I side with the one I'm making is because I think the reasons I've used are more valid than the ones you've used, but that's not an objective fact, so (as you like to say) /shrug.
You do act as if my reasons are stupid though. This is because you think they're completely subjective, but every analysis needs some subjective reasoning to rank it. Your rankings of feats and characters (namely Sheev and his TWBW feat) have that hint of subjectivity. So don't pretend that you're solely relying on facts any more than I am.
That was by connecting the holocron pieces, not through Maul's own power.
Snoke is the only one who's been shown to be able to create a bond, and activate it whenever he wants to. Even Sidious needed a long ritual before he could create the dark illusion between Dooku and Yoda.
Creating a force bond from star systems away.
Fighting is a matter of skill, not raw force power. Sidious fightning Maul does not prove him to be a more powerful force user than Snoke.
1. Alright, fine, my memories don't count, but projection was canonically easier in legends than in canon. And just because Sidious released handcuffs over lightyears doesn't prove he could survive projecting himself for 10 minutes over lightyears.
2. Luke wasn't trying to kill Vader at first either. And niether had an advantage. Then, when Luke became rage-amped, Vader couldn't defend himself. That's my account of what happened anyway. What's yours?
3. Yes, cheap shot. Luke looked into a loved one's mind, saw terrors which he'd never seen before, and almost considered killing him. Being horrified at his own actions, he looked away, when Kylo unleashed a force push so strong it destoyed the hut. This caught Luke off-guard and at a vulnerable point, and caused him to pass out.
4. Watch the scene again, Vader did not strike Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan disappeared into the force before that could happen. Either one of us is blind, or you're lying to me.
5. Dooku wasn't trying to resist. And even if he was, it still wouldn't compare to what Snoke and Luke did.
6.My point is, you don't know that Dooku or Ventress could have defeated the Preatorian guards just because they've demonstrated incorporation of force abilities in their fights.
7. If they're better fighters, they can more quickly and effectively distract a force user from choking them.
8. Yoda would have been in that situation because a Jedi uses the force for knowledge and defence. never for attack. Palpatine wouldn't have been, because he does use the force for attack.
Luke shielded himself from death when he fell back with the force, and he didn't fall until he decided it would be best to just tell her the story.
I really don't understand why you believe what you believe, because from what I've seen, everything from the originals to the sequels have implied that Luke was a very powerful force user and that if he had decided to fight (would be totally out of his character), he would have won. I'd like to know what made you scale canon Luke where you did, because I'm just not seeing it.
And please don't respond with "end of story" or "that's what happened" or anything which just shows that our interpretations of literally every scene we've talked about so far are different. Give me the details which made you feel the way you do.
9. You can mention what you want, but at least mention what makes sense. Things are different in legends, especially how powerful characters/abilities are. So you continually using legends material to show the power of characters and abilities does nothing for canon or this argument.
10. See this is it. You only believe Sidious is the top dog because he was the top dog in legends (barr Luke). Now in the new canon, Luke and Snoke have seemingly surpassed him.
He's not as powerful in canon. Still the third most powerful we've seen, but without Dark Empire, Darth Plagueis, Dark Randevous, The RotS novel, etc., he doesn't have the top feats anymore.
11. What if she doesn't drop it, but accidentally hits herself with it? Wielding somethign that can burn through anything upon touch is dangrous to yourself.
Registered: May 2007
Location: Best company on the planet
Vader was trying to win the duel. Like was not trying to kill Vader either. He easily defeated him after he stopped hiding.
Feats have been given along with actor statements, common sense, disney’s going bigger across the board in their trilogy, but you’re too stubborn to be objective so here we are. Your own reasoning shows double standards to laughable degrees.
1. Yes, it was used by Darth Maul, the Jedaii and others who were not super-adept with the force, whereas in canon, the only three people who did it are Palpatine, Snoke, and Luke. Also, Mara Jade used the ability as casually as telekenesis in "Jedi Knight". And you can check wookiepedia, or just watch a "jedi Knight Let's Play" video on YouTube, that ability was in that game.
2. He saved him from death after he changed his mind. Before that, he was trying to defend himself. And he couldn't. Luke was hesitant as well, as he didn't want to fight Vader and put down his weapon and hid. But when they were fighting, niether really won.
3. Luke didn't try to hurt Kylo. As soon as he pulled out the lightsaber, he was ashamed of himself and became distracted when Kylo caught him in a moment of emotional weakness. If Luke was performing the best he could, Kylo would have no chance in defeating him. In fact, to prove that, there's actuall a quote from the TLJ novel that says that Snoke wanted to train Kylo because only a Skywalker could kill Luke, but he's angry with Kylo and his mask in TLJ because it's not working out. He doesn't believe that Kylo even THEN, when he's grown so much, is powerful enough to contend with Luke.
4. No, only you are lying to me because every time I bring up a scene, you seem to say things are happenening in that scene which aren't happening in that scene.
And lightsabers don't make you vanish. Vader was confused as well. The explanation is, Ben chose to become a force ghost in that moment.
5. A feat over lightyears doesn't automatically translate into a strong feat over lightyears. The ability you're using also plays a role. Force choke is not as tiring or power consuming as astral projection. He didn't die because his feat wasn't as powerful or as exhaustive.
6. evidence?
7. Anyone can be distracted from using the force, otherwise jedi would be able to take out entire armies by themselves. But so many of them died in Geonosis. Because they can't kill people/destroy machines with TK when they're trying to evade attacks coming at them quickly.
8. You're trying to prove a point. If you want to prove you're right, then argue with points. Don't just say "why bother". Also, relying on memories for knowing sources isn't crazy. And I turned out to be right.
9. What?
10. How does he surpass Snoke or Luke, that's the baseless argument. You're working on the false assumption that Sheev is GOAT. He's never done anything as powerful as projecting himself or others from Ahch-To to Crait, or transporting matter or people.
11. That's irrelevant. My point was that it was dangerous for Luke to attack her, unless he just pinned her to the ground in a very un-jedi like way. If you're bringing the whole "writers wouldn't allow that" thing in here, then no, the writers wouldn't allow Luke to attack her, because then she'd DIE.
But you prove me right...Luke was so weak he died from the feat, Sidious n Snoke did not die from using their powers across light years
No, in the current comic he became conflicted and does not want to kill his son, in the movie its clear he wants him to join not to kill him.
Obviously kylo could have killed him...you know, with that whole building on top of Luke and while he was burning Lukrd school...Luke tried to strike kylo bro. He couldn’t even beat a sleeping kylo
Obi Wan SAID if you strike me down I’ll become more powerful then you can imagine. He o virus,y struck him down. I’m not saying sabers make you vanish, but if one is to become a force ghost their bodies vanish...you have several examples bro.
Evidence?
Sure, Assam Ventress n dooku using it during battle, there you go.
Now Jedi can take out entire armies? News to me, only the most powerful can do that.
When did you turn out to be right? You said Luke was as powerful as Yoda, that was false. You lied about Luke not losing to rey...so right about what?
I said thanks, you keep bitching about legends.
Already told you how he’s more powerful, move on bro
Tell me one single time someone’s hurt themselves with their own light saber from being force pushed. You grasp at straws lol. He got owned, let it go lol
1. All I proved was that the feat is easy enough in legends, but we don't know in canon. And the movie treats Luke's reveal at the end as a "Whoa, I didn't know that could happen!" moment, meaning it's a strong display of power.
And as I said, the only people we've seen use projection in canon are Sidious Snoke and Luke, and Sidious was seen using a long and complicated ritual which required Dooku's blood, where as Snoke seems to do this on will and without Kylo's knowledge. Luke also did it by meditating, and not using a ritual.
In fact, let me write a thesis on Luke's projection feat.
We know from Johnson's comments that Projection in this version is not like the doppelganger in legends, but like the force bond that we were shown earlier in the film.
So this means Luke was projecting himself in the mind of EVERY person present, and of course, in the circuits of all the droids there. It's like a mind trick on a massive scale.
And doesn't it just make sense? Luke grew so much in such a short amount of time in the originals. So him being one of the most powerful force users ever makes sense.
2. Okay, back up. Here's what happened: Vader wanted Luke to join him, and didn't want to kill him, but was still defending himself from Luke. Luke got some hits in at this time. Then, when Luke became rage-amped, he quickly defeated Vader (who couldn't defend himself from Luke's greater power). Then, Luke decided that he was a jedi and wouldn't give into his hatred, and the emperor decided to kill him. Here, Vader was thinking whether or not he wanted Luke to die, and he decided he didn't.
So, conclusion is, Luke is just as powerful as Vader (when not rage-amped). Also, the paperback novelization of Return of the Jedi proves Luke's technique in lightsabers was superior to Vader's.
3. The scene was shown to us three times. What we're led to believe is that Luke's version is the accurate one. You're thinking of Kylo's version, which we're told is inaccurate, and that makes sense, because Kylo's head was full of dark thoughts planted by Snoke, and as Luke says, he was afraid because he thought he'd been betrayed by a loved one (which was his final push to joining the dark side). And in Luke's version, Luke did not attack, only defended himself. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDYvG_P3MnU
4. Alright, fine, we'll have to agree to disagree, because both interpretations of why Luke died are valid until more information is disclosed.
5. How about common sense?
6. And so did Kylo and Rey. I've already debunked that claim of yours.
7. I said, and listen closely,IF FORCE USERS COULDN'T BE DISTRACTED IN THE HEAT OF BATTLE, AS YOU SAY THEY CAN'T, THEN THEY WOULD BE ABLE TO TAKE ON ARMIES. BUT THEY CAN'T, MEANING THAT THEY DO GET DISTRACTED. Now does that make sense?
8. Right about the fact that projection was in the game "jedi knight" and thus had to be an easy ability.
9. why did you say thanks? I told you you can't use legends material in a debate about canon. Now do you agree or not?
10. when?
11. He did NOT get owned, he let Rey win before things got *serious*. that was my whole point. He didn't want things to get serious. And it's common sense that lightsabers are dangerous and can make fights serious.
No..it isn’t lol. It’s just an illusion. Huh? So you admit it was nothing more then a force illusion...that’s what I said dummy. He died from a weak ass illusion. I haven’t seen the one Sidious performed.
Um no? Luke did nothing that was equal to Vader’s power. Now you’re just back tracking and sounding idiotic.
Kylo knocked out Luke, end of story, this supposed grand master was knocked out and his order destroyed. Kylo could have killed him, same with Rey.
Not really, he died due to the projection, every other time a death has happened in film it was due to either being killed or natural causes.
Yes common sense says Sidious is either as powerful as Snoke or more powerful, tell me, how would Snoke even defend himself against Sidious as he can’t even use a saber?
You’re equating them to more skilled force users, you’ve debunked nothing. Vader or Dooku would have tap danced over those dipshits, they couldn’t even kill low grade newbs.
Bro, Only few force users have ever had the ability to take on armies.
Yeah so?
Hmmm, can saber fight for one, can do things across a distance, etc.
No as usual you’re just making shit up as it’s never happened
Registered: May 2007
Location: Best company on the planet
He was trying to beat Luke you dimwit. Ask Lucas you dimwit. Snoke is more powerful than Sidious or Vader. Just accept it. The top is Snoke and then second place is Luke.