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Chaos King vs Lucifer Morningstar
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operator616
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by operator616

Defenders v1 #92, Eternity explains that he's incomplete, and when he's incomplete, reality will end:

http://i.imgur.com/MniJ8CS.jpg?1
http://i.imgur.com/hhJFHz5.jpg


Posted the wrong scans for this part, here are the correct ones:

http://i.imgur.com/huWhtsl.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/HPvY9W9.jpg

Old Post Jan 19th, 2014 02:06 AM
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Galan007
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas
i think we BOTH agree that his supremacy though, ended at whatever 616 eternity represents. ie--i think we both agree his reign ended at the "true" multiversal (all alternate eternities) level. is that what you were trying say? did i make any sense there?? lol
Pretty much. Thanos usurped control over that one universe/Eternity, as well as all the miscellaneous realms associated with that one universe/Eternity. He did not usurp control over more than one universe/Eternity, however.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas
ftr--i agree with the case-by-case scenario in general. i just don't understand the blatant resistance to scan after scan of on panel proof. i don't believe i've ever seen anything like it.....
Yeah, the evidence is rather blatant, imo.


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Old Post Jan 19th, 2014 02:20 AM
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leonidas
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by operator616
It actually isn't. Here's a random example (and there are plenty more) from Fantastic Four #252 confirming that the Negative zone isn't in 616:


well, there are 2 ways to view that--all the info you showed is correct AND it is all nestled within the structure of the earth universe, or, the builder's info is a retcon. i prefer the former, naturally, but regardless, we use the most recent info on the forum...

quote:
And regarding Eternity; from what i understand you're saying that each Eternity represents its universe along with its divergent universes/realities, correct? Or that one Eternity (616) represents the totality of the mainstream multiverse, while Eternity's counterparts represent other separate multiverses outside the mainstream? (i disagree either way, just curious about what you're saying).


the latter. thumb up

so it's your opinion that when that eternity in the what if was nullified, asgard, the negative zone, hell, etc., all still existed. only the earth universe was nullified? and the negative zone would be left untouched if the eternity representing the 616 earth universe were destroyed now? not sure how in the face of all the scans and on panel evidence (which supersedes any and all handbook entries) you can take the stance, but, there really isn't any more i can say or show that can be any more clear or definitive. as i said--i've still never seen a single scan, ever, that says eternity represents ONLY the 616 universe. not that he DOES embody it. but that he ONLY embodies it and nothing more.

quote:
A multiversal Eternity was also shown back in the 1st volume of Defenders.

Defenders v1 #92, Eternity explains that he's incomplete, and when he's incmplete, reality will end:

http://i.imgur.com/MniJ8CS.jpg?1
http://i.imgur.com/hhJFHz5.jpg

We know that "reality" = multiverse, according to context, because it's stated that the multiverse will end:

http://i.imgur.com/MniJ8CS.jpg?1

Further confirmed in issue #100:

http://i.imgur.com/s0VL4a2.jpg?1 [/B]


yet even with all this proof, you still say he embodies nothing more? i agree he reps the 616 earth universe. i just think the universe is more than what you assume it is i guess. both the beyonder and kubik alluded to it and it's been supported countless times. anyway, i've done all i can. if the wealth of evidence won't convince you or anyone else, c'est la vie.


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Old Post Jan 19th, 2014 02:58 AM
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leonidas
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apologies in advance for what may be a text wall....

this topic is a bit tapped out now i think, but, i do feel like it is still on topic though. determining the nature of eternity helps determine the true level of ck which is necessary when comparing him with lucifer....

as i thought about this though, i realize i caught myself up in a contradiction of sorts. when eternity was nullified by korvac, i said other realms that make up eternity would still exist--that the earth dimension that was nullified was only a single aspect of the greater, multiversal eternity.

then i said to opr that if 616 eternity were destroyed, other pocket realms would likewise be destroyed. laughing out loud to be clear, i think it can be BOTH. i think some realms are more closely tied to the earth dimension. those would be destroyed. other realms that are within the body of eternity would still exist.

imho eternity is most certainly a multiversal entity embodying many dimensions and universes. the nature of these other universes and their relationship to earth can only be speculated on though--at least with any consistency. imo our 616 universe is layered, contains/holds other 'universes' (negative zone, microverse) but the association with other dimensions is much more complicated.

for example--the nine worlds. we've seen that surtur's flames were set to destroy the earth dimension. surtur and his prophecy>eternity? that's the conclusion we're left with if we limit eternity's role to JUST the earth universe. moreover, we find that the earth dimension is only ONE of the nine worlds, no better or lesser than the others. so now eternity is just..... 1/9 of the nine worlds?? others of the nine worlds predate eternity? and what about the ties regarding origins then? that also implies that if thanos stepped into asgard with the IG, odin would still kick his a$$ because asgard is separate from the earth dimension where the ig works.

imo the nine worlds are a small multiverse unto themselves, but only a part of eternity's greater whole.

look at order and chaos. they represent order and chaos within eternity--not the "TRUE" multiverse because they have alternates, but they represent order and chaos in more than JUST the earth dimension. and their realm is separate from earth as well, but still within eternity, imo. the vishanti fit that same description. they control the balance of magic in the multiverse WITHIN our eternity. but NOT for the whole "TRUE" multiverse as they also have alternates. i use TRUE multiverse to mean all alternate eternities. the multiverse is in effect a series of infinite 'smaller' multiverses--just like has been said on panel....

thor in what ifs is referred to as thor of EARTH ###. what does that imply? it implies to me that asgard and earth exist within the same, though alternate, "body" of eternity. in fact, in any alternate version of eternity, we ALWAYS find multiple realities/dimensions/etc... conincedence? why would all these alternates exist if all these other places (dark dimension, crimson cosmos, etc...) all exist independently from not only the earth dimension, but also from eternity? makes no sense to me.

so, while i will certainly not profess to understanding the full nature of eternity--i don't think ANYONE can, and it should be viewed on a case-by-case basis--i feel like the idea that he is a multiversal/multi-dimensional/multi-universal/multi-layered entity is completely inescapable based on the evidence as a whole.

sorry again for the text wall. just wanted to make my position as clear as possible. anyone who wishes to reply, i'm begging you--please PLEASE do NOT include handbook definitions of terminology. it's like looking in the dictionary to find the definition of the number 3, then 5 authors use 3 to represent 6 things, then 1 thing, then 9 things.....the definitions are utterly meaningless if they are not adhered to. and they conclusively are NOT.

whew....i'll link this thread with the cosmology thread so none of this is lost. lots of good, interesting stuff here imo. smile


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Old Post Jan 19th, 2014 02:17 PM
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operator616
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By "true multiverse" you mean the mainstream multiverse, right? Because if so, then i am misunderstanding your stance. Are you sayin that each Eternity represents a single universe along with its associated pocket dimensions/universes (like Dark dimension, asgard, the negative parallel reality {which has alternate counterparts despite being a parallel reality as opposed to a pocket one}), yet all of the Eternity(s) are within the mainstream/true multiverse?

quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas
well, there are 2 ways to view that--all the info you showed is correct AND it is all nestled within the structure of the earth universe, or, the builder's info is a retcon. i prefer the former, naturally, but regardless, we use the most recent info on the forum...


It's not nestled within the structure of the earth universe at all. Because that would contradict everything the negative zone stands for.

Here's a GOTG comic, saying that the Negative Zone is a parallel dimension:

http://i.imgur.com/o1k5hxx.jpg?1

----------------------------------

You say, we go with the most recent info? Then most recent info it is!

Most recent info (more recent than Avengers #21) has Deadpool travel to the Negative through the distortion area:

http://i.imgur.com/J5KyD1R.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/w4YyAem.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/RLQaDFn.jpg

What is the distortion area? it's the Area between realities (FF #253):

http://i.imgur.com/452XmV1.jpg?1

That means that most recent info has the negative zone as a separate reality, just like it always has.

Again, i could give you plenty of proof that Negatize zone is a separate reality altogether. The handbook says it:

http://i.imgur.com/mv47Yik.jpg?1

"it was a different universe"

......and i could give you a dozen more scans if you want.

Like i told you, it isn't arguable.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas

the latter. thumb up

so it's your opinion that when that eternity in the what if was nullified, asgard, the negative zone, hell, etc., all still existed. only the earth universe was nullified? and the negative zone would be left untouched if the eternity representing the 616 earth universe were destroyed now? not sure how in the face of all the scans and on panel evidence (which supersedes any and all handbook entries) you can take the stance, but, there really isn't any more i can say or show that can be any more clear or definitive. as i said--i've still never seen a single scan, ever, that says eternity represents ONLY the 616 universe. not that he DOES embody it. but that he ONLY embodies it and nothing more.


yet even with all this proof, you still say he embodies nothing more? i agree he reps the 616 earth universe. i just think the universe is more than what you assume it is i guess. both the beyonder and kubik alluded to it and it's been supported countless times. anyway, i've done all i can. if the wealth of evidence won't convince you or anyone else, c'est la vie.


So....you think that im the one who's ignoring evidence and....relying on handbooks? Well, you couldn't be wrong, in that regard.

Cause what you're doing here, is ignoring the whole point of having realities outside the mainstream multiverse.

the whole point of having other realities located outside the mainstream multiverse, is that they have nothing to do with the mainstream multiverse in the first place. They have completely different characters. They have their own creation stories. Their own continuity. You won't find a Thor running around in another multiverse, because no version of Thor exists outside the multiverse, all his alternate counterparts are centered in the main multiverse only (and hence why there could be no version of Eternity or any other cosmic being, present in another multiverse)


Don't believe me? Go read any title. Read something like Doctor Zero (where earth-shadowline first appeared), and see for yourself, if you can find any reference/hint/anything that associates it with the mainstream multiverse. (i can PM you the scans for a random issue to see for yourself how things are)

You think that LT scan from ff annual contradicts anything? No it doesn't! Because LT is the exception, we saw him interfering with omniversal affairs (which dealt with the New Universe-multiverse and the mainstream multiverse) later in the Starblast crossover.

But let's get to the point now: Show me a scan saying that there are infinite Eternitys, each representing a separate multiverse (i know you don't have the scan, i just want you to admit that you're the one without proof smile ........)

Then again, if you're only saying that each Eternity represents a singular universe + pocket dimensions (essentially making it a small multiverse), then you do have an argument.

Old Post Jan 19th, 2014 02:54 PM
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Colossus-Big C
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A lot of TLDRs here


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Old Post Jan 19th, 2014 03:11 PM
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leonidas
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by operator616
By "true multiverse" you mean the mainstream multiverse, right? Because if so, then i am misunderstanding your stance. Are you sayin that each Eternity represents a single universe along with its associated pocket dimensions/universes (like Dark dimension, asgard, the negative parallel reality {which has alternate counterparts despite being a parallel reality as opposed to a pocket one}), yet all of the Eternity(s) are within the mainstream/true multiverse?


Then again, if you're only saying that each Eternity represents a singular universe + pocket dimensions (essentially making it a small multiverse), then you do have an argument.


mostly this.

we're in disagreement regarding the nature of the 616 universe though. universes WITHIN universes. a mutli-layered universe. you're saying exactly what i'm saying. i'm not saying the negative is NOT a separate universe. it IS. it's separate, yet part of, 616. like my stomach and lungs are separate organs but each is part of a system which is in turn part of a larger system.

something can be separate yet still be considered a part of something else. i guess that's the best way to describe it. in that sense, i'm ignoring no panel showings, at all. separate realities, yet PART of a larger whole. some nestled within, others not.

as for your proof--we've seen it stated on panel that UNIVERSE can mean MULTIVERSE. we have the ff arc that shows us infinite eternities. if each eternity=a smaller multiverse, you now have infinite multiverses.

conversely, you, nor anyone, can show a scan stating explicitily that eternity is limited to representing/embodying JUST the 616 universe. showing scans that say he IS the universe, has 2 problems: (a) it doesn't preclude his representing MORE, and (b) it's an ambiguous proof AT BEST, because.......the term universe itself is ambiguous.

anyway, i THINK we're in agreement that eternity is something bigger than just the 616 earth dimension. we may disagree on the make-up/associations etc... of the other dimensions that comprise it, but....i'm good with that. thumb up


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Old Post Jan 19th, 2014 04:02 PM
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TheGodKiller02
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by NemeBro
PR Beyonder is one of the most well-written and deepest characters in comics.

Cows don't have wings because he doesn't want them to Epicurus.

Lawl.

Double lawl.


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Old Post Jan 20th, 2014 10:13 AM
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TheGodKiller02
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So the gist of this thread is this; zop trolls this thread for 8 pages straight by highballing the sh1t out of CK by sticking to his high-end showings, but goes in reverse direction and completely dismisses Lucifer's similar(but more impressive) high-end feats by utilizing a ridiculous quanlite logic that since they are his brother's energies, and he was created to craft God's power with his will, all feats involving the demiurgic power somehow become redundant?

Yeah right, reported. Something that Leo, Galan and Cogito should have done earlier instead of entertaining his nonsense.


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Old Post Jan 20th, 2014 10:19 AM
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zopzop
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Epicurus
So the gist of this thread is this; zop trolls this thread for 8 pages straight by highballing the sh1t out of CK by sticking to his high-end showings, but goes in reverse direction and completely dismisses Lucifer's similar(but more impressive) high-end feats by utilizing a ridiculous quanlite logic that since they are his brother's energies, and he was created to craft God's power with his will, all feats involving the demiurgic power somehow become redundant?

This thread is LUCIFER vs CK. Not Lucifer that's shaping his dying brother's power to create a universe vs CK. Lucifer's two best feats : his creating a universe and surviving a Big Bang Blast are pointless in relation to this thread.

He didn't create that universe under his own power, he shaped his brother's power to do it. This thread isn't Lucifer tapping into Michael's power vs CK. This is LUCIFER vs CK. Show me what he's done on that level UNDER HIS OWN POWER.

Even assuming this feat is somehow valid for this thread, why does Lucifer get the benefit of the doubt regarding the scale of what was created while CK doesn't? Lucifer's creation was called both a universe and a multiverse, just like the scale of what CK destroyed and Hercules restored. But in the case of CK/Herc, it was confirmed in handbook entries and on panel that it indeed was a multiverse. You even have members of Team Lucifer stating he created an OMNIVERSE ( laughing ) with no proof whatsoever.

The "surviving" the Big Bang Blast has been debated to death before. And posters actually had examples from both Marvel and DC of characters surviving unharmed in the middle of a creation level event. Characters below abstract level.

quote:
Yeah right, reported. Something that Leo, Galan and Cogito should have done earlier instead of entertaining his nonsense.

This is rich coming from you. You routinely insult posters AND their family members (didn't you just recently call someone's wife a prostitute?), yet you have the nerve to report me for bringing up points against a comic character's questionable feats? roll eyes (sarcastic)


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Old Post Jan 20th, 2014 01:39 PM
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operator616
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by zopzop

Even assuming this feat is somehow valid for this thread, why does Lucifer get the benefit of the doubt regarding the scale of what was created while CK doesn't? Lucifer's creation was called both a universe and a multiverse, just like the scale of what CK destroyed and Hercules restored. But in the case of CK/Herc, it was confirmed in handbook entries and on panel that it indeed was a multiverse. You even have members of Team Lucifer stating he created an OMNIVERSE with no proof whatsoever.
[/B]


Apart from Lucifer mentioning that his creation was a multiverse, in Lucifer #21, it says that Michael releases energies that had been seen only once before:

http://i.imgur.com/irJz4IF.jpg?1

That's a reference to Yahweh's creation, which is confirmed to be a multiverse (Lucifer #37) composed of alternate universes:

http://i.imgur.com/qYnOJ1z.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/H7UopQl.jpg

In Lucifer #39, we see an alternate version of Cal (which confirms it further):

http://i.imgur.com/95E4goS.jpg

Also, who do you think created Yahweh's creation in the first place? It was Lucifer and Michael.....so that's a confirmed multiverse right there.

And anyone who has read the series would know that Lucifer's creation was treated as being an equal to Yahweh's (this has already been mentioned in the thread, but you aren't listening).

Imo, the evidence that Lucifer's creation is a multiverse, is stronger.

Also, handbooks have the CK feat as universal, not multiversal, so yeah.....

Old Post Jan 20th, 2014 05:09 PM
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Cogito
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by operator616
And anyone who has read the series would know that Lucifer's creation was treated as being an equal to Yahweh's (this has already been mentioned in the thread, but you aren't listening).


Aside from your other points, which are quite valid, this cannot be overstated. It was mentioned on like every other page.


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Old Post Jan 20th, 2014 06:23 PM
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zopzop
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by operator616
And anyone who has read the series would know that Lucifer's creation was treated as being an equal to Yahweh's (this has already been mentioned in the thread, but you aren't listening).

Lucifer's "Creation" using MICHAEL'S POWER right?

This thread isn't about Lucifer harnessing Michael's power vs CK. It's about LUCIFER vs CK.

So I don't get why this feat is even brought up.


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Old Post Jan 20th, 2014 07:19 PM
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TheGodKiller02
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by zopzop

This thread is LUCIFER vs CK. Not Lucifer that's shaping his dying brother's power to create a universe vs CK. Lucifer's two best feats : his creating a universe and surviving a Big Bang Blast are pointless in relation to this thread.

He didn't create that universe under his own power, he shaped his brother's power to do it. This thread isn't Lucifer tapping into Michael's power vs CK. This is LUCIFER vs CK. Show me what he's done on that level UNDER HIS OWN POWER.

Even assuming this feat is somehow valid for this thread, why does Lucifer get the benefit of the doubt regarding the scale of what was created while CK doesn't? Lucifer's creation was called both a universe and a multiverse, just like the scale of what CK destroyed and Hercules restored. But in the case of CK/Herc, it was confirmed in handbook entries and on panel that it indeed was a multiverse. You even have members of Team Lucifer stating he created an OMNIVERSE ( laughing ) with no proof whatsoever.

The "surviving" the Big Bang Blast has been debated to death before. And posters actually had examples from both Marvel and DC of characters surviving unharmed in the middle of a creation level event. Characters below abstract level.


This is rich coming from you. You routinely insult posters AND their family members (didn't you just recently call someone's wife a prostitute?), yet you have the nerve to report me for bringing up points against a [b]comic character's questionable feats? roll eyes (sarcastic)

Yes, and it's commonly known as or referred to as "reality manipulation" in comic book circles. Or did you not know about the existence of such a powerset in fictional settings?

Lol, repeating the same point over and over in different words, that too within the very same post.

By it being equitable to Yahweh's creation, you half-wit. Which itself was confirmed as being a full-blown multiverse during the cruise of Naglfar storyline. Something which was pointed out to you by me pages ago, but which I am guessing you'll gloss over yet again to repeat your pointless points about Lucifer's feats somehow becoming invalid simply because you subscribe to this silly notion that manipulating the Demiurgos lessens that feat. Have you even read the pertinent issues in question here?

Point out a single instance of random characters surviving a Big Bang, which isn't loaded with context. Because I have already debunked those ridiculous Reed/AA and Genis/Rick examples before. Be a little more original when you go about trying to dishonestly lowball a character's feats in such a manner.

Shut up, troll. My dealings with trolls similar to you on other forums is not pertinent to this thread or the discussion within it. What is relevant here though is your complete inability to partake in a debate without trolling said debate up and down with a select-few, handful of feats for the character you support, and lowballing the sh1t out of the character you're arguing against no matter how much your arguments are torn down across the thread. And don't even get me started on your predictable tendency to flip-flop from thread to thread. Maybe once upon a time it was a sight to behold, but now that particular stunt of yours is cliched, boring, overused and most of all, pathetic beyond description


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Old Post Jan 20th, 2014 07:21 PM
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zopzop
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Epicurus
Yes, and it's commonly known as or referred to as "reality manipulation" in comic book circles. Or did you not know about the existence of such a powerset in fictional settings?

Lol, repeating the same point over and over in different words, that too within the very same post.

By it being equitable to Yahweh's creation, you half-wit. Which itself was confirmed as being a full-blown multiverse during the cruise of Naglfar storyline. Something which was pointed out to you by me pages ago, but which I am guessing you'll gloss over yet again to repeat your pointless points about Lucifer's feats somehow becoming invalid simply because you subscribe to this silly notion that manipulating the Demiurgos lessens that feat. Have you even read the pertinent issues in question here?

Reality Manipulation? Really? Let's see his feats without harnessing his brother's power. Lucifer needed his brother's power to create anything worth mentioning.
This thread is Lucifer vs CK.

quote:
Point out a single instance of random characters surviving a Big Bang, which isn't loaded with context. Because I have already debunked those ridiculous Reed/AA and Genis/Rick examples before. Be a little more original when you go about trying to dishonestly lowball a character's feats in such a manner.

You've debunked nothing. Reed was right there during the Creation Event and nothing happened to him.


quote:
Shut up, troll. My dealings with trolls similar to you on other forums is not pertinent to this thread or the discussion within it. What is relevant here though is your complete inability to partake in a debate without trolling said debate up and down with a select-few, handful of feats for the character you support, and lowballing the sh1t out of the character you're arguing against no matter how much your arguments are torn down across the thread. And don't even get me started on your predictable tendency to flip-flop from thread to thread. Maybe once upon a time it was a sight to behold, but now that particular stunt of yours is cliched, boring, overused and most of all, pathetic beyond description

What other forums. You suffering from dementia or don't you remember calling a fellow forum member's wife a prostitute?


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Old Post Jan 20th, 2014 07:30 PM
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TheGodKiller02
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by zopzop

Reality Manipulation? Really? Let's see his feats without harnessing his brother's power. Lucifer needed his brother's power to create anything worth mentioning.
This thread is Lucifer vs CK.


You've debunked nothing. Reed was right there during the Creation Event and nothing happened to him.



What other forums. You suffering from dementia or don't you remember calling a fellow forum member's wife a prostitute? [/B]

How about creating a forging planets, stars and galaxies while shaping his newly formed universe? Or reconfiguring Mazikeen's face back to its disfigured form? Or shattering an entire dimension with his mere presence alone? A dimension, which is run by a Hell-Lordesque being, mind you. Or time-manipulating the Titans into their defeat, despite the fact that they were, for all intents and purposes, God/Yahweh themselves at that particular point in time? Yes, let's ignore these feats, but rely on that one feat where CK beats a retard like Super-God Herc, all the while ignoring sh1t like him being defeated via bfr or him getting shattered by Thor's lightning or the Japanese Gods imprisoning him etc. etc.

I suggest you re-read that comic to realize how utterly full of fail you are when you claim that Reed just stood there and tanked the Big Bang.

Lol, you don't even know that KMC has other forums beyond the CB VS. Have you even frequented other parts of this site, apart from the Comic Book Forums?


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Old Post Jan 20th, 2014 07:49 PM
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operator616
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Epicurus
How about creating a forging planets, stars and galaxies while shaping his newly formed universe? Or reconfiguring Mazikeen's face back to its disfigured form? Or shattering an entire dimension with his mere presence alone? A dimension, which is run by a Hell-Lordesque being, mind you. Or time-manipulating the Titans into their defeat, despite the fact that they were, for all intents and purposes, God/Yahweh themselves at that particular point in time?


thumb up

Although, remember that it was stated that the titans weren't at Yahweh levels at that point (didn't achieve absolute omnipotence yet) but still very close to being all powerful........cool feat.

Another feat worth mentioning: Folding the gateway through time and space so that it exists on every world and realm/dimension (that's space-time control).

He also changed the very concept of time in his cosmos.

Last edited by operator616 on Jan 20th, 2014 at 08:42 PM

Old Post Jan 20th, 2014 08:35 PM
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TheGodKiller02
True Killer

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Location: Hunting with wolves

Lucifer still wins, and in the process further exacerbates zop's butthurt.thumb up


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Old Post Jan 22nd, 2014 05:36 PM
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CortSether
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Lucifer fanboys are the worst.


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Old Post Jan 22nd, 2014 09:12 PM
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leonidas
MWHAHAHAHA!

Gender: Male
Location: Planning to take over the WORLD!

^ laughing out loud never even knew there was such a thing. so is it anyone who thinks lucifer wins this is a fanboy? is that why we're the worst? or is it because our reasoning is faulty in some way? is it because we ask for proof from the other side while providing some from our own perspectives? elucidate, please.


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Old Post Jan 22nd, 2014 09:23 PM
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