I think we're stuck on semantics here. The character Thor would not be the same without Mjolnir. It is synonymous with his character and should not be separated.
It's like me saying the character Iron Man's powers are his intellect and ability to drop panties, while his armor is just standard equipment.
Surfer is much faster and more mobile. Thor would have serious trouble defending if Surfer decides to use his mobility and speed and blast Thor from all angles. Also a black hole blast or board from behind hit would serious phuck Thor up and give Surfer the advantage. And if Surfer decides to phase through attacks or shield himself with force fields while manuevering then this fight is easy for him.
You're talking about the board to the back right? Because that worked every single time on Thor. He kept falling for it multiple times in battle. But Surfer used the board differently against Bill, he used it to create an opening so he could beat Bill down. He used it against Thor to just tag him, but didn't bother to follow up with other attacks, but instead followed up with monologues.
Yeah Surfer's skull was dented but reformed after what? 3 panels? Dents don't matter to Fraction's Surfer who can turn into snow, and enlarge his head like a helium balloon. BTW, did you see Thor's forehead afterwards? Quite a lot of blood.
Because post-annihilation Surfer is part of continuity and is the most recent incarnation of Surfer. His most recent fight with Bill was very close to Annihilation event, and should be taken into account. Hmm I wonder if you'd uphold the same standards for different Supermen of different eras.
Using your board to create an opening mid-fight isn't a cheap shot. If it is, then Thor is the king of cheap shots because he's hammer tossed people from the back countless times, even when they're not fighting. The hammer worked to absorb Surfer's blast, but that left a huge opening for Surfer to hit him with his board. Again, it just goes to show that the hammer isn't an auto-win against Surfer like some people are implying.
I don't even know what your point is in this sentence. Who's saying Surfer beats Thor h2h or boards are energy? Like what? :/
What are you talking about? Prove that the depowerement was only due to being trapped in Earth.
Also Loki never freed Surfer from the barrier, he only offered it as a reward for defeating Thor. Get your facts straight.
It was mentioned Surfer was still depowered in SS #2...one issue before Surfer's fight with Thor in SS#4 http://i.imgur.com/1U7f4b3.jpg?1
I don't know about after (Pretty sure he'd still be depowered as Loki never freed him), but Loki took Surfer past Galactus' barrier in order to enter Asgard. Which is the reason why he was depowered during the era, cut off from the Power Cosmic. Not to mention Loki amped him further beyond anything he'd experienced even as Herald of Galactus.
Surfer followed up the board attack with a flurry of cosmic punches on Bill. He followed up the board attack with a monologue about not fighting when he used it against Thor. Somewhat of a difference. But it's clear Thor couldn't counter getting hit by the board, since it worked like thrice. Even at the end of the fight when Thor saw the board coming from a mile away, he couldn't counter it, except with an "oh shit."
What difference does it make if Thor never encountered Surfer? Bill knew all about Surfer during their fight in Godhunter. They were acquainted in Blood and Thunder and Star Masters(?). Didn't make a difference.
I'm not trying to disprove the hammer countering Surfer. I'm saying the hammer isn't an auto-win against Surfer. Please, I'm not in the mood to point out strawmans every two seconds.
Well it goes to my point all along. Having a hammer absorbing Surfer's energy doesn't mean an auto-win against Surfer, since it leaves a huge opening to the board. This is clear even with the recent fight with Thor, when the board attack was landed like thrice.
If Bill turned to defend against the board he would be blasted. If he doesn't turn, then he gets rammed. The hammer is a strong defense against Surfer's energy blast, but it has it's weakness, clearly.
Wait, are you saying that if Surfer had followed up with some punches, he'd have been able to beat Thor? Lol. Fraction's Thor would laugh at that shit, let's be serious here. Not to mention, the board flew Thor right into a headbutt from Surfer (The go-to technique under Fraction it seems) and an energy blast or whatever and Thor handled it just fine.
It IS difficult to counter a faster then light object catching you by surprise from behind. That doesn't mean Thor CAN'T counter the board anymore then it means Surfer can't counter a hammer throw, it's just problematic, which I personally never denied.
Because it means we have direct showings between Surfer/Thor, heck, even multiple different forms of comparison. Which means that saying Surfer this and that and pointing to his encounter with Beta Ray Bill is not really that relevant.
I never said it was an auto-win. Do I get to call strawman now?
Anyways, hammer counters Surfer's energy attacks but is potentially vulnerable to board behind the back. I get it. Just so long as you understand that it doesn't mean an auto-win for Surfer either.
And if he's anything like Thor, he'd tank that energy blast no problem. One of the strongest capabilities of Mjolnir's energy absorption is being able to draw in energy from practically anything and from all directions. Turning around to block the board doesn't leave one vulnerable to energy projection. Not to mention dodging, ducking or using both hands. Basically common sense shit but whatever.
Nah, not really. And I am not separating it, since standard gear is counted as part and parcel of a character. What I am objecting to is it being included as part of Thor's powerse, which it is not.
Technically speaking, that is true. Tony without the armor is just another ******* who also happens to be a genius, billionaire, playboy etc.
Yet it did nothing whatsoever to him. That's his nature in the fights. CIS is still on in this fight, y'know.
And? That's saying punches don't matter to J'onn because he can shape-shift. So?
And his performance against the likes of Thor, Karnilla and any other heralds was essentially same as before or even worse. The most recent depiction of surfer after Annihilation showed him getting armbarred by Black Panther and getting his energy absorbed by Doom's machine like always. But that doesn't account, right? Of course. Superman has several amps in the past but only one or two have been refernced regularly. One after DOS and one after before OWAW. If I start counting his amps he would start beating skyfathers here. Take it this way, superman was stalemated by Captain Marvel and Orion before his amps and was still stalemated by them after his amps. These types of amps rarely stick on characters.
Of course it is. If an opponent can't see the attack coming, its a cheapshot. And who said he isn't? Certainly not me. After bill attacked surfer, not just after the absorbing trick. And it isn't. Surfer can certainly wins despite mjolnir but his record against it isn't stellar.
Did you even read what you wrote which I quoted?
Easy-peasy.
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It was again retconned in Marvel Age 25 that surfer was never depowered.
You mean Loki never breached Galactus' barrier and took surfer to asgard? How strange!!!
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2+1=4?
Also Surfer was taken out of Galactus barrier in SS 4 and was directly stated to be more powerful than ever.
And here I thought you knew about surfer. How silly of me.
The board did about as much damage as Thor's hammer toss and hammer strike. Neither Thor nor Surfer did any lasting damage to each other. I'm focusing on the fact that the board landed a hit on Thor thrice, and Thor couldn't react to it.
Using your board as a method of attack and then following up with some other attacks is still in-character for Surfer. But preaching non-violence is also in character unfortunately. The latter is what he did with Thor.
No, it means Surfer's form is naturally more malleable, and that dent did no lasting damage to Surfer since it was reformed a couple panels later.
Are you that dense? Thor's face was covered in blood, that head-butt hurt Thor too.
Prove it. He did well against Thor in the first encounter with Loki's amp (while depowered though), did worse in BT, and stalemated Thor in the recent encounter.
McDuffie (the writer) explained that armbar scene a long time ago. You're pretty dense if you think Surfer was in trouble against BP. Even if you believed that, it'd fall under PIS based on the forum rules. Being upgraded by Galactus doesn't make you immune to Doom's energy absorbing. Do you know the type of cosmic beings Doom has screwed over?
Whether these amps stick on is dependent on the appearances after the upgrade, and whether they seem more powerful. Before the upgrade I would've never guessed Surfer could manipulate crunch energies, or beat Bill to a blood pulp with his fists, or beat the shit out of Super Skaar and seal away his old power, or humiliate Nova, etc etc. But to be fair, Surfer has barely any comic appearances compared to people like Superman, Spiderman, Thor etc. He roughly averages 12 appearances a year. The more popular characters have that many appearances in a week...
No it's not. If Thor recalled his hammer and hit an opponent from behind MID-BATTLE, I'd call it smart battle tactics because its part of his power-set. Same with Surfer's board. A cheapshot would be if you surprised attack someone behind before the fight even starts.
What If Cyclops was held down by a physically superior enemy, and he shoots an optic blast that ricochets off a wall, and hits the enemy in the back of the head. Based on your definition that's a cheapshot, for me it's a f'ing smart way to use your powers. That's essentially what Surfer did.
On the other hand, if Cyclops starts a fight by surprise blasting an enemy in the back, that's a cheap shot.
Do you see the difference?
He only really lost to Thor in BT, which isn't that bad because Thor was written as a powerhouse in that comic. But his first fight with Thor he did really well against Mjolnir, even separating Thor from it. He also did well against Bill who has a Mjolnir clone (Storm Breaker). And most recently, he did perfectly fine against crazy Fraction Thor.
I did, it didn't make sense. What's this talk about boards being energy?
How does that retcon the depowerement? All the scan said was that the ozone blocks some energy Surfer uses, and that he resorts to another method of getting power, which burned a hole in the ozone.
I asked for scans of when Surfer was restored to full power in the comic-book question thread. Post them if you have them.
Loki transporting Surfer to Asgard doesn't necessarily mean Surfer was free, it just meant they passed the barrier just to get to Asgard, which is just another dimension. You left out the part of the panel that said Surfer would only be free if he accomplished his mission in Asgard. But what does it matter? You still haven't posted actual proof that he wasn't depowered.
Surfer was permanently depowered very recently prior to his fight with Thor.
SS 4 is when he fought Thor, what are you talking about?
Says the person who has a legendary reputation to low-ball, post out of context scans, and misrepresent Surfer (and just about any other herald that can challenge Superman).
Haha, its cute how you think that. Surfer cried out in pain by his own shot on mars, Thor didn't. He didn't need to. He was just that damn durable that he could tank those love taps all day long.
Its in-character for surfer for a long time, it doesn't always proves so good for him though. Thor might pull a Lunatik on him and bash his head in with his own board.
You mean healing from a wound means someone got no damage from a dented skull? How amazing!!
And I asked what about it? Nobody said it didn't hurt thor.
First thing first, he was more powerful than ever against Thor in first fight by Loki himself, nearly killed Thor with a warning shot by his own admission, knocked out a stunned thor with one attack in the same issue where he is supposed to be weaker and got oneshotted twice when he isn't supposed to be.
He did? In which comic? When he got drained like always and got oneshotted? Yeah, he was classic surfer all the same. Not when surfer has the worst record against energy draining among all the high heralds. By inductors? Because panther just randomly copied Doom's inductor based draining device and drained him like always.
And annihilation amp never stuck. Why? Classic surfer has better feats than that. That doesn't excuses getting oneshotted by Karnilla or getting impaled by an Aleph robot.
Now you're just flip-flopping. Its a cheapshot in every way. Just because Thor does it all the time doesn't means its not. Nope. Cheapshots means every shot where a character got surprised attacked and isn't prepared for an attack from behind.
He fought smartly and cheapshotted the enemy I'd say. He did it against magneto and Logan of all people called him out on using a dirty tactic.
Nope. You're simply obfuscating a very simple idea.
Between what actually?
Which Thor shattered and was holding back by surfer's own admission. He also lost to Bill in B&T and Bill beat the shit out of the same Thor who beat surfer in Surfer's own comic no less. By cheapshotting him. When Bill cheapshotted surfer while being wounded he KTFO surfer in two hits. Sure.
You said stormbreaker couldn't counter surfer's attacks when it did just that.
That tells us that the "depowered" surfer was just him not able to absorb power efficiently under earth's atmosphere.
Retcon what in that? Surfer never mentioned Sonic Shark in SS 2. In the same comics he tells us how cosmos "replenishes" his strength.
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But if you want to know where was surfer's power returned exactly to him, here it is told just after SS 18 in continuity.
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There you go, surfer absorbed back all the power it had absorbed from him. Its the same sonic shark BTW.
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Happy?
Already did.
Asgard is in a different dimension sure, but the depowered state was only on earth. And his mergence with Loki made him explicitly more powerful than ever.
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So it matters little that he was depowered or not.
What?
Eh, I sure as heck don't get schooled by say carver in my superman knowledge.
What's wrong? Don't like reading? Make sense based on your misleading interpretations of the comic.
You think the truth is cute? Okay.
Surfer ramming Thor into Mars and saying it hurt is proof that Thor was whooping Surfer's ass? What kind of garbage argument is that?
Yeah that's why when the board was about to hit him the third time Thor was like "oh f*ck."
He had plenty of chances in their first fight, didn't happen. He had plenty of chances their recent fight, didn't happen. Instead the board kept being shoved up Thor's butt, almost literally.
Fraction's Surfer doesn't have a skull to fracture, he's been show to turn into f'ing liquid, snow, cold air, and expand his head like a balloon. Bottom line is that dent did no lasting damage. I'll repeat so you understand, it did no lasting damage.
Is your memory that bad. You tried passing that initial head-butt as proof that Thor was whooping Surfer, even though that head-butt hurt Thor too with all that blood running down his face.
Surfer only said he felt powerful because of Loki's amp. But again, Surfer was depowered just prior to his first fight with Thor.
We're talking about the arm bar here, not being drained. A high herald being armbarred is clearly PIS and can't be used in this forum. Surfer's not immune to being drained by super geniuses with prep. But neither are Galactus or Beyonder.
Prove it. Or this another one of your countless baseless statements?
Classic Surfer also has more low feats as well. You should know, you made it a hobby to collect low-feats for herald characters.
Good thing we look at averages here.
See when you accuse me of flip-flopping it just proves you either have no reading comprehension or you just can't be bothered to read the text. My definition of cheapshot has been consistent this entire thread. Let me put it in terms that grade school kids can understand:
My definition = if a character surprise attacks someone from behind before a fight starts, that is a cheap shot
Your definition = if a character can't see the attack.
Based on your definition Invisible Woman's entire powerset is based on cheapshots, same with Super Skrull using her powers, same with Multiple Man surrounding his enemies with duplicates, same with Cyclops bouncing his optic blasts off walls.
If someone attacked Kitty and she phases through them, she should definitely not attack them from behind. She should wait for them to turn around and then attack. Other whys it's a cheapshot. Genius
I say all of the above are fair game as long as the fight has already started.
No, more like your definition of cheapshot is asinine. Stop trying to perpetuate it.
Can't help you see if you refuse to open your eyes.
So? After he broke the force-field he was blasted into the ground and at Surfer's mercy. Read the scans, they're right above you.
What happened to Surfer in BT was a real cheap-shot from Bill. Surfer was flying with the Infinity Watch and having a conversation with them when Bill initiates the fight by surprise attacking him from behind.
Remember my definition = if a character surprise attacks someone from behind before a fight starts, that is a cheap shot
No it doesn't. Stop making sh*t up. That scan in no way retcons his depowerement or even makes the slightest reference to his depowerement.
All it says is that the ozone blocks some energy, so he gathers energy another way, which burned a hole in the ozone. Again, reading comprehension.
He clearly references his depowerement in SS #2
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Are you serious? You're trying to pass that scan as Surfer being back to full power? Surfer was making a statement about how he doesn't get energy from food like tea, he gets it from the cosmos.
Now who's flip flopping? You said that Surfer was restored to full power during his fight with Thor. Now you post scans that supposedly show that he was restored to full power much later after the fight (multiple volumes later).
No it wasn't. You haven't proved that at all. He wasn't restored to full power when he went to Asgard. It was Loki's power added to his own that made him more powerful.
Of course it matters. If he was at full power and had Loki's amp, he would've devastated Thor a lot worse. But he was permanently weakened before fighting Thor, but had Loki's amp. It puts the fight into perspective.
Earlier Khazra claimed Surfer amped with Loki's power still lost to Thor. When it turned out Surfer was winning, and was also permanently depowered before the fight. This is why context matters, we get people saying false BS, and everyone accepts it.
No but you get schooled by Rage, Bran, and even Galan and have your "myth busts" myth busted, and have your Superman feats either discredited or toned down to reality.
This again? You are repeating the same "misleading interpretation" argument? Sad.
Your delusions are.
Surfer raging out and only able to hurt himself rather than Thor while Thor dents his skull and no sells his point blank blast means Surfer was getting his ass kicked.
Was he?
That's because Fraction Thor is a retarded brute. Thor kep shoving mjolnir up surfer's ass regularly too.
So he's martian manhunter lite? Big deal, J'onn gets his head punched in often enough as it is. You can repeat it as much you want, it would change nothing. By that definition nothing would beat hulk or wolverine because they can heal damage.
Thor's forehead was bloody, surfer's forehead was ****ing caved in. He healed back but who got worse by that attack is obvious to everybody but you.
And Loki said he is more powerful than ever. Without the amp Loki said he was no match for Thor at all.
Which made him more powerful than ever.
That's invalid per rules here. He was backtracking anyway.
But both happened under the same writer, why is one PIS and other isn't? With inductors? Pretty much classic surfer. Not with inductors. Johnny wielded his power and he didn't note any increase in surfer's power either.
Name one another instance where surfer mentioned his amp. Heck even in Annihilation its mentioned that Galactus merely restored his power, not augmented it. Its not my job to prove it didn't stuck, its your job to prove it stuck. Fraction made that surfer would be weakened away from earth but in Infinity there was no mention of it.
Nothing as low as armbarred by Black Panther though.
We do, not herald fans though. Surfer is back where he always was.
I called it flip-flopping because you are applying different standards for surfer and Thor. And you're ****ing wrong. Move on.
That's right.
You are grasping at straws now. Stop this foolishness.
If she phases someone from behind its most assuredly a cheapshot. Have you like ever read an X-men comic?
Nope.
Stop. You are just being inane at this point with nonsensical analogies.
Right back at ya.
While he was holding back his power while surfer wasn't. He is a peer of Thor and he can bring Thor down if he gets his shots in. That was never in dispute. Funny thing coming from you.
While Bill was heavily weakened and wounded. But that's ignored, right?
Did I ever say bill didn't cheapshotted surfer?
Of course it does.
Which he did just recently as FF discovered. "Recent depletion" of ozone layer means surfer just recently discovered ozone layer blocked the rays an he blasted a hole in it. That absolutely retcons why he seemed weaker.
Depowerment but not by a specific being. In FF 74 he described it because he was denied the power of endless cosmos, not because he was drained by sonic shark.
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Nah, it was to show that when he went back to space after galactus' barrier, his strength is replenished. Your reading comprehension sucks.
I made a mistake as I remembered the scene taking place after SS 2. Honest mistake bro, that scene took place after SS 18.
I thought one of the main reasons Surfer was depowered was because of Galactus' barrier, no? Loki specifically broke through Galactus' barrier and took Surfer to Asgard which allow him to access the Cosmic energies he would normally be denied.
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