Ah I'm just quoting Tolkien in his letters when I say accepted, quote Letters 156
"the crisis had become too grave and needed an enhancement is power. So Gandalf sacrificed himself, was accepted, and enhanced, and returned. 'Yes, that was the name. I was Gandalf'"
Really we're just arguing over semantics here, my main point is that I was trying to reflect that the Nazgul cause an unreasoning fear. The Witchking above all of them, the fear caused at Minas Tirith caused all others to fee and to be unable to act. Gandalf alone was left to forbid the WK entrance.
The very act of Gandalf standing firm and opposing him and addressing the WK in a "Strong" manner (I will provide quotes when I find my copy of the book) suggests to me that whilst he felt fear, it was not an unreasoning fear and that in fact the WK-Gandalf battle would have been closer matched than many see.
It could be argued that by his intellect and command skills Gandalf won the battle regardless. It was through the very train of resistance that he had organised that aveted the battle between WK and Gandalf instead the fight fell to other, moral hands.
__________________ Yet the making of things is in my heart from my own making by thee; and the child of little understanding that makes a play of the deeds of his father may do so without without thought of mockery, but because he is the son of his father.
Also, I believe if a woman and a hobbit can defeat the WK (and his fell beast) in hand-in-hand combat I don't doubt for one second that Gandalf wouldn't struggle!
Besides we all know why he didn't attack the WK openly and foreably: he is forbidden by the Valar to use his powers like that.
Essentially Gandalf overthrew Sauron as he was enabler that set (organised and kept going) off the chain of events that eventually led to the Dark Lord's downfall.
Because that is the whole irony of the Witch-King's destruction. The Barrow Blade was taken from the abode of one of the Barrow Wights- but the Barrow Wights were created by a curse from the Witch King whilst he was ruling Angmar; they were the last resting places of the royalty of Cardolan, part of Arnor, which the Witch-King had destroyed.
But as Merry and Pippin picked up blades from there after being kidnapped by the Wights, the irony is that if the Wights had not existed, they would never have got that sword- the blade of a Cardolani royal, often assumed to be the last king of Cardolan.
And as Tolkien notes:
"So passed the sword of the Barrow-downs... but glad would [its creator] have been to know its fate who wrought it slowly long asgo in the North Kingdom when the Dunedain were young, and chief among their foes was the dread realm of Angmar and its Sorcerer King. No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have deal that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will."
It was the sword that was important, and it was because of the Witch-King's curse that the Hobbits edned up with it. So ultimately, the Witch-King caused his own destruction.
__________________
"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"
seriously are you all thick. gandalf would batter witchking. Gandalf is the most powerfull being unless sauron returns to full srength (quoted from two towers). Gandalf isnt scared of witchking nor vice versa. sauron is scared of gandalf and aragorn the only ones who poise a threat to him. Gandal has been chosen by the valar and given the powers of the valar to complete the quest. witch king is just a corrupted man with not that much power. look it up yourself. tolkien actually said that if gandalf and the witchking were to meat gandalf would have defeated him.
Seriously, you come in here and straight off call us thick? Way to win the judgemental top prize! Go you!
Gandalf did indeed FEAR the WK. He was in mortal form (as Gandalf, not Olorin) and was subject to the frailty of human form. Gandalf was not chosen by the Valar, it was actually Olorin. These are the same spirit but they are not in the same form. Sounds like you need to do some research.
It's all good to claim Tolkien says something but you need to back it up with a quote and a source otherwise it's just you saying it.
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Bless you... you are right on the money. It is conceivable that Sauron increased the power of the Witch King for the attack on Gondor (never stated in the book, or the movies), but if not, keep this in mind; he was a hair below the power of Gandalf the Grey- and yes they did clash on top of Weathertop (book and movie). Against Gandalf the White, though very formidable, Witch King falls well short. It's in the books people. read them (it's even in the movies if you pay attention).
Gender: Male Location: United States (of America... it's r
you seem to know your Tolkien. I thought it was stated (or at least strongly implied) in the books that after falling to the Barlog, Gandalf was taken/sent/what have you, into the presence of the Valar, had life restored to him, and returned to Middle-Earth, now wearing the greater mantle of the White Wizard... he returned far more formidable, did he not? And I'm not sure about the difference between Olorin/Gandalf... I thought that Olorin was simply the name the Elves used... what other differences were there between the two?
Gender: Male Location: United States (of America... it's r
He drove them off- not really the same as defeated. Their work (stabbing Frodo with the Morgul blade- hence bringing him into their power) was done. In the books, it is explained that the ringwraiths were not yet fully empowered- their power was growing as in step with the returning/growing power of Sauron. The Witch King in Return of the King was quite a bit more powerful then he was in the first movie.
Gandalf had bigger problems to deal with than the witch king. in a one on one fight Gandalf would have won easily-BUT he was forbidden to fight directly (power to power) with evil. He strove with Sauron and matched power in order to distract him from Frodo so if Sauron > Witch King and Gandalf = Sauron then by substitution Gandalf > Witch King. Page numbers will be in the next edit.
All I'm sayin is that Olorin and Gandalf are the same BEING but in two different FORMS. Olorin is the SPIRIT FORM (and abides in Aman) and Gandalf is the PHYSICAL FORM (and abides in Middle Earth). If you are not familiar with the history; Olorin was a powerful spirit, called a Maiar (of equal power rank to that of Sauron) and is very old, being created near the beginning of the world. He was hand-picked by the wise in Aman to be sent along with 4 others to persuade the free peoples of ME to resist Sauron without force (hence why you rarely see Gandalf use his powers in open displays). Only when he was sent to ME was he called Gandalf. For thousands of years before his name was Olorin in his home of Aman and is again when he returned.
Yes, that is true, Gandalf was sent back to finish his mission. But not by the Valar as you say. Gandalf was sent back by Eru/Illuvatar himself, as it was within the boundaries of his powers alone to do this.
Last edited by The Secret Fire on Feb 6th, 2008 at 10:27 AM
Sauron was the chief of Morgoth's lieutenants, but Gandalf the gray was barely able to take a Balrog. The white was equal in power to Sauron yes, but he was forbidden to match power for power because he might fall as Saruman did. Sauron > Balrog Balrog = Gandalf (gray). After he was sent back by Mandos, the king of the hall of the dead he was more powerful, strong enough to contend with Sauron. When he returned, he had the full power of the White wizard, which Saruman had before he fell. The difference between Gandalf and Olorin is negligible, as the same consciousness guided both, and they had the same power. Saying Olorin is like saying Gandalf's soul's name.
You probably should be reminded that before Durin's Bane, Gandalf was weakened by hundreds of years of travelling as an old man, fighting of a reakawened Necromancer, a gang of Ringwraiths (twice) and along with the stress and pressure of an almost impossible mission I think we can give the guy some freaking credit! The Balrog was only the tip of the iceburg.
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