Mathematically, Gandalf could handle the Witch King. Gandalf is maiar and cannot be killed. It is worth noting however, that fate, which Tolkien intertwines with prophecy and sometimes refers to as "doom", seems to make the powers of those greater irrelevant to those weaker at various times. This is evidenced in the Silmarillion when Beren passes through the Girdle of Melian (who was a Maia as was Gandalf, and Beren a mortal man) under which no one before had passed unbidden into Thingol's realm. Melian herself predicted that her power would not be able to withhold one mortal man in the future when she told Galadriel "Now the world runs on swiftly to great tidings. And of Men, even of Beor's house, shall indeed come, and the Girdle of Melian shall not restrain him, for doom greater than my power shall send him; and the songs that shall spring forth from that coming shall endure when all Middle Earth is changed." And remember, it was this mortal man, Beren, who removed a Silmaril from the very crown of Melkor (a Valar, creator of orcs balrogs, and dragons), with the help of Luthien, his love. And he did this in spite of the fact that the most powerful of all Elves who ever lived, Feanor, the very creator of the Silmarils, could not even get close enough to Melkor to set his eyes on a Silmaril again after they were stolen, even with the aid of his sons and their armies of elves.
In this respect, it is feasible that the Witch-king is able overcome Gandalf as it had been prophesied by Glorfindel that no man would be able to slay him. "Do not pursue him! He will not return to these lands. Far off yet is his doom, and not by the hand of man will he fall."(and Gandalf, though of the Maiar, was in the form of a man and had a man's hand) Gandalf would not have been fighting only the Witch King, but fate itself, and Gandalf was not powerful enough to battle fate. Thus it was fate that Éowyn would be the one to kill the Witch-king because of (and in accordance with) Glorfindel's prophecy.
Last edited by Nolofinwë on Nov 7th, 2006 at 07:42 PM
Glorfindel does not say that a man Cannot slay the Witch King. He prophesies that man will not. I would also mention that just because Glorfindel has made this prophesy doesn't necessarily make it so even the very wise cannot see all ends and whilst the Witch King is slain by Eowyn and Merry it didn't have to happen like this just because Lord Glorfindel said so.
The actual prophesy can be read in Appendix A: Eriador, Arnor, and the Heirs of Isildur:
'Earnur now rode back, but Glorfindel, looking into the gathering dark, said: "Do not pursue him! He will not return to this land. Far off is his doom, and not by the hand of man will he fall."
Even though if Glorfindel prophesied that a man wouldn't kill the Witch-King doesn't mean that it had to happen that way, a prophesy is something that can be fulfilled, not that has to be.
__________________ Yet the making of things is in my heart from my own making by thee; and the child of little understanding that makes a play of the deeds of his father may do so without without thought of mockery, but because he is the son of his father.
Getting mighty heated in here lol. I thought this was a thread about the movie? No? Well anyway, im just watching, continue.
__________________ "You can stop a rose from growing if you nip it in the bud, but you can't stop the stream from flowing and you cannot stop the flood."
Well, you can always talk with me here, puny mortal.....
__________________ Yet the lies that Melkor, the mighty and accursed, Morgoth Bauglir, the Power of Terror and of Hate, sowed in the hearts of Elves and Men are a seed that does not die and cannot be destroyed; and ever and anon it sprouts anew, and will bear dark fruit even unto the latest days.
"… his name is Melkor, Lord of All, Giver of Freedeom, and he shall make you stronger than they."
Sauron to Ar-Pharazôn
Firstly, I would like to try to explain 'Why Gandalf didn't fight the Witch King'.
If you are referring to the movie ROTK, then a simple analysis of the scene may reveal the answer. The Witch King reveals his flaming sword, which, by some pulse of magic, breaks Gandalf’s staff and knocks him from his horse. The Witch King seemingly closes in for the kill, when in the nick of time, the horns of the Rohirrim are heard and the Witch King flies away. Followed here, are three points (in order of likelihood) I have conceived that could explain the scene.
1. The movie’ version of Gandalf doesn’t have the power to defend against the Witch King’s attack.
2. Gandalf perhaps does not have the opportunity to fight back because the Witch King flies away.
3. Gandalf has foreknowledge of the Witch King’s fate and so doesn’t bother.
On the other hand, if you are referring to the books, the explanation is even simpler; The Witch King leaves before a fight can ensue.
In the movie, it seems that between Gandalf and the Witch King, the Witch King has the edge.
However, in the books, though it is impossible to say for certain since there was not a fight, by gathering information about Gandalf and the Witch King’s powers, weapons, etc we can make a fairly strong forecast on the outcome of a match between Gandalf and the Witch King.
Category | Gandalf | Witch King
|
Race- | Ainur | Child of Arda
Division- | Maia | Second born (Human)
Title- | Istari | Nasgûl
Ring- | Narya (one of the Three) | (One of the Nine)
In all of the above categories, Gandalf has superiority.
It is also worth stating that Gandalf was an Istar. ‘Emissaries they were from the lords of the west, the Valar, who still took counsel for the governance of Middle-Earth, and when the shadow of Sauron first began to stir again took this means of resisting him. For with the consent of Eru they sent members of their own high order, but clad in bodies as of men, real and not feigned, but subject to the fears and pains and weariness of earth, able to hunger and thirst and be slain; though because of their noble spirits did not die, and aged only by the cares and labours of many long years. And this the valour did, desiring to amend the errors of old, especially that they had attempted to guard and seclude the Eldar by their own might and glory fully revealed; whereas now their emissaries were forbidden to reveal themselves in forms of majesty, or to seek to rule the wills of Men or Elves by open display of power, but coming in shapes weak and humble were bidden to advise and persuade Men and Elves to good, and to seek to unite in love and understanding all those who Sauron, should he come again, would endeavour to dominate and corrupt.’ Unfinished Tales, The Istari, Page 503.
Thus denoting that Gandalf the Grey was only using a fraction of his power. Even as Gandalf the Grey, he was still powerful enough to destroy a Balrog (a corrupted Maia spirit), though at expense to his own life. When Gandalf was sent back he was markedly stronger, previously being a subordinate to Saruman he was now his superior, being able to cast Saruman from the order.
Here it seems applicable to quote: ‘’Saruman!’ cried Gimli, springing towards him with axe in hand. ‘Speak! Tell us where you have hidden our friends! What have you done with them? Speak, or I will make a dint in your hat that even a wizard will find it hard to deal with!’
The old man was too quick for him. He sprang to his feet and leaped to the top of a large rock. There he stood, grown suddenly tall, towering above them. His hood and his grey rags were flung away. His white garments shone. He lifted up his staff, and Gimli’s axe leaped from his grasp and fell ringing to the ground. The sword of Aragorn, stiff in his motionless hand, blazed with a sudden fire. Legolas gave a great shout and shot an arrow high into the air: it vanished in a flash of flame. ‘Mithrandir!’ he cried. ‘Mithrandir!’
‘Well met I say to you again, Legolas!’ said the old man.
They all gazed at him. His hair was white ass snow in the sunshine; and gleaming white was his robe; the eyes under his deep brows were bright, piercing as the rays of the sun; power was in his hand. Between wonder, joy, and fear they stood and found no words to say.
At last Aragorn stirred. ‘Gandalf!’ he said. ‘Beyond all hope you return to us in our need! What veil was over my sight? Gandalf!’ Gimli said nothing, but sank to his knees, shading his eyes.
‘Gandalf,’ the old man repeated, as if recalling from old memory a long disused word. ‘Yes, that was the name. I was Gandalf.’
He stepped down from the rock, and picking up his grey cloak wrapped it about him: it seemed as if the sun had been shining, but now was hid in cloud again. ‘Yes, you may still call me Gandalf,’ he said, and the voice was the voice of their old friend and guide. ‘Get up, my good Gimli! No blame to you, and no harm done to me. Indeed my friends, none of you have any weapon that could hurt me. Be merry! We meet again. At the turn of the tide. The great storm is coming, but the tide has turned.’’
In summary I would say that in a fight, the movie version of Gandalf would lose to the Witch King, but the Book version of Gandalf would win against the Witch King.
Last edited by TolkienScholar on Dec 29th, 2006 at 09:33 AM
Maia are Grater in power then anything on earth, they can be defeated, but they are stronger. Gandalf, Saruman, Sauron and the Balrog are Maia and are stronger then the witchking.
Gandalf fighted the Balrog when he was Grey, and fighted with all nine nazguls, including the witch king, on the wind top. He was victorious on both battles.
In the book, Gandalf was doing the same thing he did with the Balrog and he would defeat witch king if he dind flew away, i believe, because balrog is much more powerfull then a nazgul, that is out of question.
Gosh, people still confused here? At no point was Gandalf ever victorious in battle against all nine Nazgul. He ran away! he himself is not sure if he can defeat the Witch-King, so it doesn;t matter what the hell he is, the fact is there is no certainty of victory.
__________________
"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"
He ran away ultimatley, but he was set upon by all Nine. Besieged under Night as they Dared not face his wrath during the day. I admit there is no certainty of a defeat on either side as Tolkien didn't work on such rules there is never any clear cut winner. Still, I think its healthy and natural to debate such points and it still stands that Gandalf was set upon by the Nine upon weathertop and he defended himself through the night until at daybreak he could flee. He didn't defeat them, but they did not defeat him either.
__________________ Yet the making of things is in my heart from my own making by thee; and the child of little understanding that makes a play of the deeds of his father may do so without without thought of mockery, but because he is the son of his father.
Err, talk about 'being able to debate' all you like; fact is the poster before me says he was 'victorious' in that battle. He was not. Stating falsehoods is not conductive to good debate.
__________________
"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"
__________________ Yet the making of things is in my heart from my own making by thee; and the child of little understanding that makes a play of the deeds of his father may do so without without thought of mockery, but because he is the son of his father.
Gandalf shoulda owned wiki. gandalf is one of the maiar for crying out loud. wiki is powerful but i doubt he is in the same league as a balrog and gandalf owned that.
We don't know how the battle went now do we? For all we know Gandalf hid in a hole and chased the Nazgul away with a stick as they tried to enter the hole. The thing is we just don't know. Saying Gandalf stood against the Nine doesn't mean what he would do against the Witch-king who was strengthed by Sauron in single combat.
We don't know how stronger the Witch-king became and we don't know how powerful Gandalf the White was. Gandalf himself had doubts as to whom would be the victor of the fight. Gandalf even stated that the Witch-king was his equal at one point in the book and even proclaimed that he feared the leader of the Nine.
To actually say "Gandalf would defeat the Witch-king" or vise versa is pointless because of lack of TRUE knowledge on the two.
__________________
Last edited by ESB -1138 on Jun 22nd, 2007 at 10:09 AM
Exactly. Oi, I'm glad someone brought this up! On another forum that I visit the people there are actually convined that Hurin, I think it was, could defeat both Obi-Wan Kenobi and Anakin at the same time, because he managed to kill 60 Trolls by himself...
But Tolkien himself tells us that the Nazgul have no great physical power against the fearless (something that during the battle at Pelennor Gandalf was certainly fearless, he and Shadowfax being the only living things that did not flee before the Witch-King) what Tolkien states in
Letter 210 is "Their peril is almost entirley due to the unreasoning fear they inspire (like Ghosts). They have no great physical power against the fearless; but what they have, and the fear that they inspire, is enormously increased in darkness"
Gandalf describes the battle on weathertop as in that such fire and light had not been seen upon Amun-Sul since the watchtowers of old. Fire and light that Aragorn and the Hobbits saw from a great distance, hardly hiding in a hole and chasing them away with a stick. I am not categorically saying that Gandalf would have won against the Witchking, it is my personal opinion that he would.
What I am saying that he did indeed defend himself against all of the Nine upon Weathertop for long enough for Daybreak and his escape and I am more certainly suggesting that they did not attack him during the day because they feared his wrath under the sun why they were not at their most powerful. Even the Witchking in his case is not raised to hi strength as he is in Volume III with Tolkien stating
"The Witch-king, their leader, is more powerful in all ways than the others; but he must not yet be raised to the stature of Vol. III. There, put in command by Sauron, he is given an added demonic force. But even in the Battle of the Pelennor, the darkness had only just broken."
Even assuming this vast increase in power Gandalf has also been greatly enhanced by powers beyond that of Sauron or even the Valar, his is sent back and shows a sudden power on some occasions quote Tolkien Letters 156
"He alone is left to forbid the entrance of the Lord of Nazgul to Minas Tirith, when the City has been overthrown and its gates destroyed - and yet so powerful is the whole train of human resistance, that he himself has kindled and organized, that in fact no battle between the two occurs: it passes to other mortal hands."
It is also suggested that Gandalf had enough Power within him, that out of everyone he alone could be expected to Master Sauron if Gandalf were to take the One Ring in letters 246
"Of the others only Gandalf might be expected to master him-being an emissary of the Powers and a creature of the same order, an immortal spirit taking a visible physical form"
and
"If Gandalf proved the victor, the result would have been for Sauron the same as the destruction of the Ring; for him it would have been destroyed, taken from him for ever"
I would assume that, if albeit with the aid of the Ring Gandalf can be seen as being the only one capable of Mastering Sauron who Gandalf himself admits "Black is still mightier" then I would also assume that his power without the Ring but as the White would equal that of Saurons greatest servant, the Witch-King. Thus in the battle of the Pelennor we can view the two beings of equals and thusly we cannot predict who would win in a physical battle between the two we can only form personal opinions on our own which cannot be taken as fact by either side.
__________________ Yet the making of things is in my heart from my own making by thee; and the child of little understanding that makes a play of the deeds of his father may do so without without thought of mockery, but because he is the son of his father.
The same was said about Saruman and Galadriel. Just because Gandalf did not back down from the Witch-king does not mean he didn't have fear. Gandalf just knew that he would be the only one capable of standing to the might of the Black Rider.
Tolkien makes it clear that as Olorin was placed in human form as Gandalf he was subject to human emotions.. and fear he felt:
- Fear that the Ring had gotten into the hands of the Nine.
- Fear that he would have to sacrifice his own life to save the ones he loves and for the best of all peoples of M/E.
- Fear that Frodo died in his attempt to destroy the Ring.
- And fear that he had failed the quest and his mission.
What emotion do you think drove the urgency in his mission (the later part) if not fear itself?
I'm not saying that Gandalf did not feel fear at all, ever. Only to stand before the Witchking alone, to forbid the entrance of the Lord of the Nazgul to Minas Tirith when all others flee shows than Gandalf does not have the "unreasoning fear" that the is the true peril of the Nine.
Gandalf did indeed sacrifice his life to aid the others, he sacrificed, his sacrifice was accepted and he returned enhanced.
__________________ Yet the making of things is in my heart from my own making by thee; and the child of little understanding that makes a play of the deeds of his father may do so without without thought of mockery, but because he is the son of his father.
I'm not too sure what you're saying there Lupin...
Fear almost always has reason e.g: someone is scared of heights because they are afraid of falling (and then possibly dying).
Gandalf's sacrifice was admired rather than accepted. It was the most selfless act and it was respected and revered by Eru/Illuvatar, that's why he was given a second chance.
KMC Community Forums
Nov 7th, 2006 07:33 PM
