Can he logically analyze a possible threat in less than a second? Assuming Superman could analyze the situation rather quickly, and use his heat vision on Sue (all in maybe a second or less) could Torch prepare himself to stop it that quickly?
We're assuming he'll automatically aim for Sue first?
And considering this is a Superman **vs** FF threat, would not anything that he does be considered a threat?
And I guess Sue will just be standing there while he tries to zorch her?
And if Superman gives off ambient solar heat...uh oh, wooks wike twouble ~
And hold on. Superman has never been the type to run into a fight guns blazing, ever. Trying to make a thread with him as such is akin to saying Batman will fight to the death when you know that is something that he does not do.
And here is the quote that I was referencing, from Dan Jurgens (re: Thor vs. Superman):
"After numerous e-mails from friends pointing to a minor firestorm of sorts regarding my comments relating to the power levels of Thor and Superman, I thought some clarity might help.
Yes, in the exchange, I was asked if Superman was a million times more powerful than Thor. I said yes.
I also chuckled as I said it, a very important part of the response that did not translate into print. I don't blame Rich as he gave me the chance to edit the interview. Quite frankly, it never occurred to me that anyone would seriously think that statement was an accurate representation of my belief on the matter.
So... we screwed up.
Superman is NOT a million times more powerful than Thor. In my book, he is probably not even twice as powerful as Thor. Superman has more expansive powers than Thor, IMO, thanks to his vision powers, etc.
I also think they fight quite differently. Thor tends to be more of a brawny reactionary type, >>>>>>while Superman probably fights with a more strategic approach.<<<<<<<< Thor is more likely to cut loose with the full measure of his powers as he does not have the "dampers" on that power that Superman was raised with. Both qualities can be an advantage or disadvantage, depending on the circumstances.
If they fought ten times, neither would win all ten, or even seven, eight or nine battles, for that matter. Not anymore than the Miami Dolphins would beat the Jets ten games out of ten.
I apologize for any confusion.
DJ"
Arrows indicating Superman always approaching a battle strategically. That is why I scoff at those who say Superman will just fly in and pummel someone to death. He does not do it.
Last edited by Never on Feb 17th, 2005 at 11:45 PM
I wonder how fast a cosmic radiated elastic super genius thinks?
Do we agree this battle takes place with both foes in line of site with a start point? Would each combatant have a few seconds to size up the opponent before the bell? That would be a big factor.
Well, first I assume he would attack Sue first because he knows her powers will give him perhaps the most trouble. Second, hey, I understand that Superman doesn't go blazing into a fight. But look at it this way, if Superman uses strategy (as you said and i agree he does) he'll realize that the best strategy and perhaps the only one that will work in this scenario IS to blitz his opponents.
If that is the case then the FF go down. But if Reed knows about his Kryptonite weakness that changes things. The hard part is for Reed to actually get his hands on some. Oh my bad let me guess hell contact the Surfer and have him wip up a batch real quick.
__________________
The price of fame is high and the Thing cant pay the way.
Lol. Well the guy that started the thread said no Kryptonite allowed.
I don't know, since these characters don't know of eachother (right?) than Superman doesn't know what any of the Four's powers are and vice versa, so they wouldn't be able to play to weaknesses really. And it's right what Never has been saying that Superman has never been the type to simply rush his opponents. But does that mean he's not capable of doing so or is simply not going to do so? I believe he is capable. Than all he has to do is, well, do it. Aren't we suppose to assume that everyone is going to do every possible thing within their power to defeat their opponent? Thinking faster, reacting faster, and moving faster are all things reasonably within Superman's capabilities. I know that Supe's comic book history would speak contrary to that, so if anyone chooses not to even consider this arguement, eh, nothing I can do.
One point which I'm not sure was brought up or not (it
may be nothing anyhow), but from what I remember of
the FF comics, Sue's shield seems to require a great deal
of effort on her part to maintain, specifically against
strong attacks. If so, how many Superman punches can
her stamina really stand?
Further, since Superman can easily kill any of the other
three members, how will she be able to protect them all?
I'd like to point out the likely scenario:
1-Superman arrives flying, the Thing (as usual) attacks
first. Superman knocks him a few dozen miles away with
one punch.
2-The Torch then attacks second (also as is often the case)
Superman hesitates for a second, not knowing of the
extent of Torch's powers. A few seconds later, knocks
him out with one slap.
3-Sue, witnessing Superman's great powers, puts up a
shield around herself and Reed.
4-Superman attacks shield, punches at it again and again
until shield collapses, along with an exhausted Sue.
5-Reed tries to stretch and wrap around Superman, but is
easily knocked out or even torn apart.
6-Superman wacks barely-conscious Sue (after copping a
feel).
7-The End.
1., no, only large constructs put her under tremendous strain.
2., as soon as Superman waltzes in, Sue pops two force bubbles in his lungs and inflates them. She does not need to know anything about his super powers to do that.
Sue force fields are not as stong as people think , hulk broke it really quickly. And sups can do the same thing and remember superman body is harder than stell even he puts the bubble inside him he will be quick enough to finish sue.
As for the rest sups is stonger than Thing so his outclass , Torch nothing really he can do to harm sups , and Mr.fantastic well he won't be able to hold him off.
Remember that super Skrull(he had all there power)
beated all of them pretty easy if he can do it sups can do it faster.
in the FF show he broke her forcefield Watch "nightmare in Green" hulk takes out the whole FF4 by himself and don't say Cartoon don't count it's made by marvel so it's just comic which gets animated.
I don't remember even in comic her forcefield has been broken by stonger power. If someone can give "Never" refence please do so because i don't want to search for references.
I doubt Superman is just going to "waltz in" if he takes this battle at all seriously. And is their any evidence to support that Superman is vulnerable to such an attack?
I have a few questions: What are the boundaries for this battle? How long can Sue keep up a force field? How close would she have to be to attack Superman?
Here's a possible scenario. The fight starts, Sue puts up her field, Superman flies in, takes out Thing, Mr. Fantastic and Torch (he could do this very fast and very easy). Sue (if she was even able to SEE this) might be able to get a field into Supes lungs. Supes feels this, flys off into space. Waits for Sue's shield to go down, takes her out. Im a little rushed or i would try to say more.
Earlier... I didn't mean that the force fields are soundproof themselves...just that if she mabye layered them they could be used to stop Supes from hearing...
As for him attacking sue first... I really don't see him going after the woman first. But besides that, Ben would be the biggest target, and looks like he would be the strong guy on the team so I think Supes would go for him first and let him take the first shot (as he usually does) to test his strength.... and on top of that Ben is pretty much gonna be the one to start things off.
Last edited by Vegetto on Feb 18th, 2005 at 07:13 PM
Several fights wherein Superman took the fight seriously and "waltzed" in, as is typical:
Vs. The Shaggy Man, Grant Morrison run
Vs. Batman, Dark Knight Returns
Vs. Doomsday
Vs. Prometheus
Vs. the White Martians, JLA #2
Vs. Ra's Al Ghul, Tower of Babel story arc, Mark Waid run
Vs. Gog, Kingdom Come
Vs. Brainiac, Dark Knight Strikes Back.
Vs. Hulk, Marvel vs. DC
Vs. Thor, JLA vs. Avengers
Vs. Terminus, JLA vs. Avengers.
How much evidence do we have of Superman simply "going all out?" I know Superman has killed precisely...argh, 3 times is it? Doomsday, Zod, and I am forgetting one.
This is 3 times. Out of what, hundreds of battles? The writer, Dan Jurgens, even supports this.
So yes, the ODDS are that he WILL fly in (walk, whatever), fold his arms, and check them out first. He almost always does this. He's not Orion. He's not Thor. He's not Mindless Hulk.
Am Sue can keep up a forcefield long enough to knock him out. Place the bubbles/constructs in his lungs, brain, liver, wherever. And yes, althought it supports my position, even they have zero prior knowledge of one another, odds are he either settles on The Thing first (assuming he even attacks first. why are we assuming this when that is not his character?), or The Human Torch.
When has Superman ever flown off into space to avoid a battle? And I ask simply because that's so not even his character.
"Flies in and takes out The Thing, Mr. Fantastic, and The Human Torch?"
Can anyone please show me ONE battle where Superman has ever sped through three foes and defeated them via speed alone? Question then. Why is it that, when he was face to face with Prometheus -- he didn't just "speed blitz" him and knock him out? Or against any of the white martians? Or against Ra's Al Ghul? Or against Lex Luthor when he had The Philosopher's Stone (Rock of Ages story arc)? Or against Wonder Woman when she beat him? Or against Captain Marvel in Kingdom Come? Or against Captain Marvel in JLA 1,000,000? Or against Batman in Dark Knight Returns OR Dark Knight Strikes Back? Or against Doomsday?
That's like saying "well Wolverine can just automatically go berzerk and beat Spiderman" in the other thread. He doesn't do it!
Is there evidence that Superman is vulnerable to what kind of attack? He bleeds. He dies. He has been knocked out. That's plenty of evidence.
Last edited by Never on Feb 18th, 2005 at 07:29 PM
this argument seems kind of pointless to me...but considering how shallow and simple a character that Superman is, the FF would probably beat him just like they beat any other characters of virtually unlimited power that were far stronger than Superman. Additionally, saying Superman could run through and kill 3 out of 4 memebers of the FF in a single sweep is one of the most ignorant things ive ever heard. shame on u.
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Feb 17th, 2005 11:27 PM
