Registered: May 2005
Location: somewhere over the rainbow
~pats janus puts out back reaching down~ good job to nai and illustrious too.
__________________ The whole world trembles in fear before my awesome unholy army of garden gnomes soon we will rule the world and from there...home depot!!!
I don't know about Frobo Janus, but I have not been trying to prove that "Revan is God" at all. I have never even stated (unlike you and other Ragnos fanboys) that Revan or Ragnos would win this fight. You think he takes it no question, blah, blah, blah. Truth is, Ragnos lovers have made a nice string of lies here they pretend is truth.
Ragnos fanboys have constantly been making up crap like this: (in parenthesees are the truth or interesting side-notes they pretend don't exist) "Ragnos couldn't have possibly manipulated the other Sith into doing his orders (even though Sadow did it later easily), Ragnos must've been battled a hundred times a day, (though nothing ever comes close to saying something like that), Every last Sith hated him and tried to kill him (Even though he had a really nice funeral and people had no clue what to do without him) and he defeated them all, (even though the only one we know he's defeated is Simus and we have no idea how powerful he is, so don't pretend he's the best. It says they fought for control of the Sith empire, not that Simus was dark lord.)
Ragnos always fought everyone who challenged him (even though Kreia says he manipulated his enemies into fighting each other, and nothing is ever mention on him beating anyone) Ragnos would never use his Sith army to fight anyone who challenged him, and all those Sith would've stupidly fought him for control every day. Sadow can't possibly be stronger than him because he didn't kill Simus (was he even around for more than a century? Doubt it. Prove it if he was or stfu.) Sadow never tried to kill Ragnos because Ragnos is invincible (even though it would be far more strategic to simply wait for his death, not fight Ragnos' army, play on their confusion, and form them into an army) Sadow hasn't done anything more impressive than Ragnos (Sadow blew up a star, Ragnos... oh yeah, defeated some guy.)
Everyone feared Ragnos' spirit (even though Sadow didn't bother to listen and neither did Kressh, Kun and Ulic had no orders to obey, and Jaden wasn't scared of Ragnos. Ragnos was challenged for the dark lord every day against other god like sith (who laughably couldn't even beat the Republic with all that power) nearly every sith ever in that time tried to fight Ragnos one on one without either using trickery (even though every other time period shows NO sith turning on their masters in a fair fight, most obey orders without question, everything is different to how the Ragnos fanboys want it right?) Kreia says Ragnos possessed tremedous strength both pysically and in the Force so he must be all powerful (even though she also says Revan was power, staring at him was like staring into the heart of the Force. and even though she talks far more about the other sith lords than Ragnos)
Ragnos' spirit was charged with tons of Force energy, enough to power a small army of non-force users into dark Jedi capable of several dark powers, and was brought back to life (therefore since you people think spirits get weaker over time, Ragnos has NOT had 5,000 years of weakening. Ragnos' spirit charged with all that energy lost pathetically even with a sith sword to a Jedi knight.) It's not like that means anything, spirits are never very strong (even though Nadd's spirit had Exar Kun at it's mercy twice after several centuries of "weakening") and it's not like any other spirit did more impressive things than Ragnos' spirit (even though Kun had 4,000 years of losing power from the massassi race he drained, Kun's spirit still destroyed a jedi knight that held his own against Luke, and Kun's spirit required 12 padawans, Luke's spirit, and Vodo's spirit COMBINING their power and two lightsabers against Kun's spirit, who had no weapon unlike Ragnos, to destroy Kun's spirit.)
END RAGNOS FANBOY IMITATION: Now I know I exaggerated some parts but you guys have been doing it to Revan too. Fact is, we can only go on FACTS.
FACT: Ragnos ruled over the Sith empire for a century, and has defeated one Sith Lord. He manipulated his enemies into fighting each other.
That's it, EVERYTHING else is total assumption. You guys make up these fantasies and pretend Ragnos fights every day against all powerful sith (who again, laughably couldn't defeat the Republic with star destroying and a weak form of battle meditation along with immense wealth and bizzare technology)
Ragnos could easily have manipulated the sith to listening to every word he says (this is supported by his funeral, the fact that they didn't know what to do without him, and Sadow easily did it) so no, the other sith would've been up against a dictator with control of a sith empire and naturally wouldn't fight him. Sadow is not necessarily weaker because it was far more strategic to wait until Ragnos died to take over the sith and have them fight the Republic and Sadow can destroy stars whereas Ragnos cannot.
Simus was not the best magician ever nor a dark lord, unless you can prove otherwise.
FACT: Ragnos' spirit lost to Jaden, even Ajunta Pall wasn't terribly bad against the weak Revan, and basically every other spirit ever was far more impressive. Ragnos is barely even mentioned (if at all), nor is he credited with a lot of power on star wars websites.
And there you have it folks. All evidence goes against Ragnos being all powerful. Sure he must've had some power and it's way too hard to gauge, but what we KNOW easily leads to the conclusion that Ragnos was NOT the best, or even too close. The assumptions can go either way, both sides have about the same but it comes down to facts.
One last thing: Ragnos supporters here have not only lied about several things (mostly out of ignorance I believe) but have continually called Darth Frobo and I Revan fanboys. Now look back, while they have been saying Ragnos is the most powerful, we have NEVER said Revan is stronger, we are simply pointing out the truth of Ragnos, and Ragnos fanboys couldn't take it so they started calling us Revan fanboys even though we weren't supporting Revan like they were supporting Ragnos. A few words come to mind: Hypocritical fanboys who can't stand the thought that Ragnos might be weak so they make up stuff to pretend he's the best and start insulting anyone who says otherwise.
RAGNOS= PWNED!
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Thanks to Janus for the great Sig.
Last edited by Emperor Revan on Aug 10th, 2005 at 08:14 PM
Registered: May 2005
Location: somewhere over the rainbow
Emperor I agree with you for certain things but for the sake of peace just drop it it's over.
__________________ The whole world trembles in fear before my awesome unholy army of garden gnomes soon we will rule the world and from there...home depot!!!
Registered: May 2005
Location: somewhere over the rainbow
thanks man janus made it for me.
__________________ The whole world trembles in fear before my awesome unholy army of garden gnomes soon we will rule the world and from there...home depot!!!
Sweet. I made my avatar myself but have no idea how to make a sig, or at least one that would look good.
About the Argument: Didn't see the whole truce thing till just now, uh, sorry. The peace idea sounds great, let's just get back to how we were, I'm tired of all the spiteful insults and everything else. We don't know NEARLY enough to make a clear decision so we should stop arguing.
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Thanks to Janus for the great Sig.
Last edited by Emperor Revan on Aug 10th, 2005 at 08:21 PM
Registered: May 2005
Location: somewhere over the rainbow
agreed
__________________ The whole world trembles in fear before my awesome unholy army of garden gnomes soon we will rule the world and from there...home depot!!!
Registered: May 2005
Location: .::The Anti-Fanboy Confederation::.
Sorry...but I just have to answer this. Emperor Revan
1)
Sadow didn't manipulate the Sith into following him. He simply made it look like the Republic had attacked the Sith Empire and since he was the one with the position that the Sith Empire should attack the Republic while Kressh refused doing so the only option for the Sith Lords was to declare him to the dark lord. Mention that the Sith Lords didn't obey the Dark Lord. He was just something like the chancellor in the Republic with the single different that he didn't rely on politics and diplomacy but on sheer physical strength and strength with the force.
2)
No one here said that Ragnos would have fight 100 times each day. Nor did someone say that he had to fight all Sith. At least he had to kill people to rise through the ranks of the Empire. That (from all we have seen) means he had to kill a Sith acolute, a Sith apprentice, a Sith Master, a Sith Lord and at least the Dark Lord to get where he was in the end. That leads me to point:
3)
Obviously: If Simus and Ragnos did fight for the control over the Sith Empire that means that one of them must be the Dark Lord at this time. As we know it wasn't Ragnos it had to be Simus. Mention that all sources on the internet label him as Dark Lord. And also mention that he is refered to as the strongest Sith magician of that time within the comics.
4)
Ragnos could have used the entire army of the Sith Empire since he didn't have control over the entire army of the Sith Empire. The control over the troops was in the hands of the Dark Lord. Fact is that Kressh had his own army under his own command during the time Sadow was the Dark Lord.
5)
Sadow was around during the time Ragnos killed Simus. It's clearly told that Sadow was told by Simus during that time. So that "strategic" argument you pulled off is simply crap because waiting 150 years until somebody dies if you simply can kill him would be the most stupid thing ever done. Especialy when thinking of the circumstances those poeple lived in.
6)
Say the Sith couldn't take the Republic is stupid since they all failed because of betrayal if you didn't get it. Sadow failed because of betrayal (since the commander of his fleet attacked him), so did Kun later (Ulic betrayed him) and so did Revan himself (Malak betrayed him).
Yet it also makes no sence to compare later Sith with the people during that time since later Sith could simply kill their masters without ever having to worry that someone else might challenge them (Malak as well as Sidious).
7)
If you really want to count on Kreias statements:
- Ragnos had tremendous strength (physical and in the force) while Revan only had strength in the force (while physically he is nothing compared to Ragnos)
- any ancient Sith Lord will make people in KotoR times look like children in a melee fight (including Revan)
So while Kreia is impressed by Ragnos force power and physical strength she is only impressed by Revans force potential (since that is the only point she referes to).
8)
Since you again use to refer to Jedi Academy. Imagine original Ragnos wielding his all-powerful sceptre that (in you oppinion) boosts force powers of spirits beyond imagination, charging entire armies of non force users with enough force power to use lightning, and it can drain the force out of living beings, planets, artifacts, everything.
Revan against that power would not only get defeated he would literally get destroyed.
9)
For just calling me a Ragnos fanboy. Everything we know about Revan is based on what ? Assumptions. Because you people run around and assume how powerful his opponents were. Nothing more. What evidence do you have that Revan was good ? None. Because there is not a single fact about Revan that makes him powerful in any way.
- he killed Echani what could have done by any force user
- he killed Mandalore what could also have done by any force user (at least Ulic Quel-Droma did it so Ulic = Revan)
- he killed Jedi / Sith that would get owned by ROTS Padawans
- he is said to be a great strategist and the only reason is that the mandalorians compared him to Kavar. Great deal since we don't know how good Kavar was.
- he killed Malak and Malak failed to kill a single Jedi Council member coming to fight him.
So what do you want to tell me ? Going by the facts we know Sidious could kill 3 Jedi Council members in seconds so could Kreia. That means:
Sidious > Malak
Kreia > Malak
Since Malak was close to Revan in power that means
Sidious = or > Revan
Kreia = or > Revan
That would result in:
The Exile > Revan
Mace Windu > Revan
Yoda > Revan
Dooku > Revan
Just to continue that stuff: Dooku was killed by Anakin in ROTS so:
ROTS Anakin > Revan
Then ROTS Anakin was defeated by Obi-Wan. Conclusion:
ROTS Obi-Wan > Revan
That would happen when you "go by the facts without any (logical) assumptions". And something makes me believe you won't agree on that.
__________________
"Dear God, what is it like in your funny little brains?"
Far from it, you leveled a couple assumptions based on incongruities, that's far from "pwining" anyone. Also, Simus was explicitly mentioned, in narration, as being the most powerful of his era. It would be effectively saying you're trying to deny Sidious killing 3 Jedi Masters in seconds -- it would just be false, because it was stated otherwise. Ragnos beat Simus, he is clearly very powerful.
Here's the rule in literature: Narration = true. Dialogue = Possibly true.
Oh really? How many people can we PROVE, without a shadow of a doubt, is better and greater than Ragnos, when both are in their physical/corporeal primes? No one from his era, of course, and that era includes the height of the Sith Empire, Simus, Sadow, and Kressh. Who else are you going to throw in there that would without question make him "not even close to" the best?
Absolutely, I don't know who pulled that smoldering pile of steaming Sith, but it's false. "Strategic" my ass. Anyone who says otherwise is ignorant to the way the Old Sith Empire worked.
It was one Dark Lord, multiple Sith Lords, and legions of Sith beneath that. To ascend to Sith Lord, you simply have to get there. To become Dark Lord, you have to either beat the Dark Lord in a 1v1 fight, or be greater than the other Sith Lords in the event the Dark Lord is vacant (i.e. Sadow).
The above scenario was not the case for Malak and Revan, Sidious and Plagueis, etc. So the comparison is both stupid and moot.
And if you noticed, Ragnos' spirit was never destroyed. Jaden simply defeated the physical shell of his spirit, which was a Dark Jedi that Jaden had ALREADY defeated. How does that mean nothing? And again, you glance over the fact that Kun drained a whole race like it was a minor footnote. Good job weighting the facts.
Exactly. From the FMVs and cutscenes alone (the only gameplay aspects we have), Revan is good, but far from the god some people are trying to make him out to be.
And I guess you don't notice things like these:
When you're blindly leveling Propaganda.
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Last edited by Illustrious on Aug 11th, 2005 at 01:27 AM
No, I'm done. I'm open to any points if they are good enough to convince me that Ragnos would lose to Revan, but there hasn't been any points. They Revan fanboys have been trying their damn best to tear down Ragnos' accomplishments and weigh facts to bolster their argument. I'm not going to stick around for any more of that.
Registered: May 2005
Location: somewhere over the rainbow
it's over neither side has enough proof or the ability to sufficiently convince the opponents I gave it up last page or the page before I don't care anymore this is OVER it's done with for me personally it's been done with for pages so don't expect me to get back in here.
__________________ The whole world trembles in fear before my awesome unholy army of garden gnomes soon we will rule the world and from there...home depot!!!
Aug 10th, 2005 07:41 PM
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