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That bullshit! The Final script virtually overrides even the novel. It goes event by event what happens in the movies. You don't know what you're saying.
Sidious used Lightning to throw Yoda back. Lightning is more powerful than a force push. Not to mention, Sidious landed in a chair after the push.
And did Yoda run after he was shocked? Or did Sidious try to run after he was pushed? Hmm?
First of all, Sidious was relentlessly throwing Pods at Yoda when he was on the higher ground and Yoda dodged them all. Yoda threw one back from the downward gravity point and Sidious had no time to react. He was barely able to escape the Pod.
Yoda displayed that he was more powerful in the force by winning that force fight. He failed himself. Sidious won nothing.
Yoda's extreme power sent him flying off the Pod because he was smaller than Sidious. Hell, they thought he was dead after that fall. It was two hundred feet!
Yoda even tried to hang on, he probably wanted to finish Sidious off and unfortunately, he fell, due to his own powerful blast.
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No you don't know what your saying, Lucasfilms stance on canon:
When it comes to absolute canon, the real story of Star Wars, you must turn to the films themselves - and only the films. Even novelizations are interpretations of the film, and while they are largely true to George Lucas' vision (he works quite closely with the novel authors), the method in which they are written does allow for some minor differences.
So? I already said Yoda won that part..
This has been discussed various time, if there is anything that Sidious isn't, its stupid. He knows that Yoda has a good chance of beating him in a fight, why risk it? He JUST, after years and years of meticulous planning managed to overthrow the republic, take control, and destroy the Jedi Order. No one in their right mind is gonna wanna lose all that. Yoda COULD beat Sidious, obviously, and Sids knows it. He didn't wanna risk fighting a battle he might lose. He's a coward, like all Sith, but that doesn't make him weak. Refer to Palpatines own words "All who gain power are afraid to lose it..." Like his master Plagieus, Palpatine had gained SO much power that all he was afraid of was losing his power, and Yoda had the ability to make him lose it, so he tried to get the hell outta there.
BS, Sids jumped casually outta the way, he was laughing and watching Yoda get ready to throw the pod back. If he had cared at all what Yoda did he and Yoda would fought over control of the pod, instead Sidious just let him catch it and thought it was amusing. And Yoda didn't just dodge the pods effortlessly, he barley manage to escape the last pod throw, go watch the movie when Yoda stumbles and falls oh his face.
Yea, Yoda won the lightning fight, Yoda's a powerful guy, but it still took all of Yoda's will to overpower Sidious.
You make it sound like it was all Yoda. It wasn't. It was the shock-wave of 2 oober powerful force users locked in a force war. Much the same as When Anakin and Obi-wan tried to force push each other. It wasn't "Yoda's extreme power" it was 2 very powerful forces clashing together that erupted and sent both flying backwards. Kinda like 2 magnets trying to be pushed together on the same (+) side, its a battle, and the closer you get the magnets the more powerful the reverse force pushing them away.
Finish him off? Sids was by no means defeated, he was laughing after the force fight too (he was laughing at Yoda the whole fight actually).. had Yoda returned the battle would have kept going strong, and who knows that would happened.
Registered: May 2005
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I don't see the script mentioned in there.
The script is the groundworks for the movie. It explains things by every little detail and has every little dialogue made by characters in there. You're trying to classify it as Canon, and you're failing miserabely.
The Final draft of the script completely overrides any novel or anything else at that, except for the movie.
Oh. Okay.
Um . . . Yeah, everyone already knows that.
Point in case? He tried to run away. After he got lobbed into his Office Chair.
Sidious is laughing because he is a maniac, but that doesn't mean he isn't losing.
And Sidious didn't have much time to redirect the Pod, seeing as he barely escaped it when he jumped out of it's way.
Yoda was jumping away from the Pods and had his Lightsaber ready. Yoda threw ONE POD back at him, and had him jumping away.
Oh, It did? Where does it say this? In the Script? In the invalid novel?
Where exactly does it say Yoda used all of his will?
No.
Sadly, you're completely incorrect.
Yoda deflects Sidious' Lightning, he doesn't absorb it, and he counter reacts with a powerful Force push.
Yoda didn't absorb his Lightning, he deflected it and counter acted with a huge force push.
Sidious was on the brink of defeat, actually.
"The energy bolts begin to arc back on the Emperor. It looks as if the Dark Lord is doomed. "
^ Someone was almost defeated, and it wasn't Yoda.
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My point was that Yoda put his lightsaber away just to catch that one, so Sidious would probably have to do the same if he was going to throw handfuls of them.....
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its an easy choice for me. dooku has beaten mace before, and sidious has beaten yoda. for some reason the common belief if that yoda could beat sidious, with or without alot of trouble.
there was nothing in ep 3 that indicated that. they fought. sidious was the agressor and the dominant fighter the entire time. at no point did yoda show he was stronger with the force or with a saber. it started with them trading force attacks. sidious dropped yoda and let his arrogance get to him and rather than finishing him off let him regain conciousness and stand up to attack. yoda attacked sidious, who wasnt unconcious for any period of time. he tried to leave and was stopped by yoda. this doesnt mean he knew he was weaker and would lose, only that he knew it was a risk to fight, and he wasnt interested in taking any risks.
they fought with sabers, neither of them making any mistakes, neither of them scoring any hits. sidious was more aggressive and couldnt break yodas defence. but at the same time yoda wasnt able to score any hits himself.
for an unknown reason they stopped using sabers and moved to force powers. any assumpions to why this happened would only be a guess. sidios was disarmed and created distance, sidious disarmed yoda who had to recover his saber and sidious created distance, or any number of things could have contributed to why it became a force battle.
sidious was still the dominant figher, throwing many objects at yoda and laughing, obviously not straining himself too much. yoda avoided all the attacks and managed to counter one. sidious threw the pod, he wasnt pushing it while yoda forced it back, yoda stopped its momentum and threw it. he didnt prove he was stronger. sidious had up to 3 pods in the air at once, without looking at them, both impressive feats, and because neither tried to replicate the others attacks its impossible to judge wether they could have done as well, worse or better than their opponent.
so after yoda dodged a number of attacks, nearly getting hit, he countered one of palpatines. palpatine dodged this. yoda them moved in to close range for saber combat. this could be because he knew sidious didnt have a saber becuase hed been disarmed, or becuase he knew he was better at saber combat than sidious, or becuase he knew he was no match for him in a straight force fight. its all speculation.
yoda got close, was disarmed by force lightning and tried to deflect the lightning of sidious. he was unable to and seemed to be losing, sidous seemed stronger, yoda then managed to stop himself being forced back, and push back on the scource of the lightning. creating a concussive force that knocked both back. yoda fell and was injured. if he wasnt and they kept fighting the outcome is unknown, that might have been the last energy yoda had, he might have returned to defeat sidious. he might have been cut down by a saber attack with no way to block it. its all unknown. sidious dominated the fight, and won the fight. yoda hung on until the end, but thats all he did. he never dominated, he only got a two decent offencive moves in during the entire thing. both proved ineffective.
and dooku is said to have beaten mace before. alot of people love mace and cant comprehend that he could lose to anyone other than yoda. dooku is older and his arrogant may get the better of him, so he could lose, but i believe hes a better dueler. either way sidious beats yoda, if mace survives he finds himself overwhelmed by the force powers of sidious.
dont get me wrong, i love yoda, i think hes a pretty equal match for sidious, but he fought and he lost. he is the only being in the galaxy that could go toe to toe with sidious and have a chance of winning. he just doesnt have enough to put sidious away convincingly.
Perhaps lots of people believe that Yoda could beat Sidious because it's fairly obvious? Or the script confirms it? Or (if I'm not mistakes about the ROTS Commentary) Lucas confirms it?
The aggressor? Wait, didn't Sidious try to run away? And didn't Yoda stop him? Dominant fighter? Umm, yeah, Sidious was dominant, even though at no point does he appear to defeat Yoda or even effectively KO him.
Bullshit
Where did Sidious drop Yoda? In the movie? In the script? In the recesses of Decay's mind?
What? If you run away, with a look of fear on your face, you usually don't consider yourself to be equal.
Yes, but considering the fact that Yoda has a shorter reach, and a shorter lightsabre, coupled with the fact that he was on the edge of the pod...
The script has it penned. Yoda managed to disarm Sidious, which for some bizarre reason would imply that Yoda was superior to Sidious in the lightsabre battle.
Laughing? WTF? What did you expect? He's the quintessential deranged maniac. He was dominant because he had the higher ground, and the help of gravity with throwing his pods.
He proved that he could stop a pod hurtling towards him at a huge speed (and aided by gravity) and toss it back up (gravity, anyone?)
See above...
WTH? If your opponent is unarmed and you're armed, the best thing to do is close the distance...
"The Dark Lord seems to be doomed."
It was certainly strong enough to stop Sidious laughing...
Yep, but considering the fact that he successfully disarmed Sidious and effectively countered his lightning...
Pure bullshit. You fail to take into account the fact that Yoda disarmed Sidious, or the fact that Yoda effectively countered Sidious' lightning, [i]or the fact that his throwing back one pod is very impressive considering that he threw it against gravity and stopped it whilst it was hurtling towards him.
Yep, okay.
He lost because of circumstance. Nothing more, nothing less. Lucas confirms this and so does common sense. You have several flaws in your argument that really make it look silly...
i think you misinterpreted me. sidious is the agressor during combat. hes the one doing the attacking, he has yoda stuck on defence. hes dominant, yoda is unable to mount an attack to much of the fight, where as sidious is attacking constantly. and sidious does try and run, but i think i already mentioned that and his probable motives for it.
yoda was hit with force lightning and knocked unconcious. taken out in one hit, id say that qualifies as dropped. sidiou just thought hed done more damage than he had and yoda got back up.
sidious did have the gravity advantage with throwing, but he did lift multiple pods, and had to tear them out of where they were situated.laughing indicates he wasnt straining himself to any high degree.
and yeah, yoda proved he could stop a pod at high speed aided by gravity and throw it upwards against gravity. he didnt prove he could overcome palpatines force powers and stop him throwing it to start with. just becuase sidious doesnt do it doesnt mean he cant.
i covered alot of possible options, the movie doesnt show what happened to palpatines saber, he could be disarmed, he could have it in his sleeve. it doesnt show, parts of the script that didnt make it into the movie arnt cannon. grievous killing shakk ti was originally in the script, and it was filmed, it doesnt make it cannon.
and i took into account everything you said i didnt. its possible he disarmed him, but we will never know. yoda did counter his lightning, and he threw a senate pod, but i think i mentioned both of those things. your argument seems to pick out points in mine and disreguard others. i never said yoda didnt disarm sidious, i never said yoda couldnt pick up and throw just as many pods as sidious. i never said yoda didnt have impressive force powers.
if your going to counter me, actully read what i said and dont just jump in and try and make me look stupid becuase you love yoda and want to disasemble what i said and make me look stupid.
Okay, he has Yoda "stuck on defense", however, whatever Sidious was throwing at him, Yoda was blocking and throwing it right back at Sidious, hell did you read the script? See the movie?
Which means? Like I said, and pointed out directly by the script, Yoda was tossing everything back at Palpatine, and then some. Even going as far as disarming him.
Also, as I posted half the fight via the script: YODA unleashes a ferocious assault on PALPATINE, causing him to almost go over the edge. The Dark Lord drops his lightsaber.
When was Yoda knocked unconcious? Especially when in the next sentence you say he got back up.
And? I'm sure any competant Force user could do this. It's simple telekenesis.
Or, as pointed out, that he's a madman.
Except he did overcome his Force powers on several occasions:
YODA blocks the lightning and throws PALPATINE backwards off the podium. YODA is deflecting the Sith Lord's lightning bolts.
Sadly for you, the script points out he dropped it, which trumps your "opinion".
It was trumped by the fact we see Shaak Ti later on, IIRC. Also, where in the script does it say anything about Shaak Ti? It doesn't. That was in the earlier drafts.
Sadly the script says, therefore since it's a non-contradicting point, it stands. Your Shaak Ti example holds no water because it's trumped by the movie, whereas the whole lightsaber bit isn't.
It's the point of debating, my young Padawan (on KMC atleast). Prove your points, and in the process make your opponent look stupid.
Yes, however, the script trumps opinions. And, how was it even if Sidious was up and Yoda was down? Also noted that the script adds the minor things in the movie that some take guesses at. For example, the Maul vs. Obi-Wan fight, someone can claim Maul was gaining the upperhand, another could claim he's not (this is based on what we see, everyone has different visuals, and bias sometimes), then when the script comes in and agrees that he was, in-fact, overpowering him. Then okay -- he was. The script would be wrong if I saw Obi-Wan actually beating the piss out of Maul, but besides a kick and breaking his lightsaber, and only being on the offensive for 4 seconds, he didn't.
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Last edited by Advent on May 3rd, 2006 at 02:44 AM
- Yoda would have beaten Sidious on neutral ground.
- Yoda is Sidious's superior in both lightsaber combat and Force powers.
- Sidious was frightened of Yoda.
- Sidious tried to flee.
I disagree with:
- People who that Yoda is smarter than Sidious.
If you think that, you are an official idiot. I seem to recall Sidious managing to ascend to the highest level of political office in the Republic despite being the Jedi's foremost enemy; manipulating a war that turned the Republic into a civil war; executing a command that all but crushed the Jedi Order; and transforming the stagnant Republic into an Empire. Yoda was helpless during all of it. Why? Because Palpy is smarter than him.
Intellectually, Sidious is superior to Yoda. He duped Yoda and the entire Council for decades, not to mention brilliants like Dooku and Gunray. In the fight, Sidious [who is Yoda's inferior in both categories] fought smarter than Yoda. Else he wouldn't have managed to have lasted as long as he did.
The bottom line is this: Sidious > Yoda in Intellect. Give the man his fricken' props. I may not think much of Sidious anymore as a warlord or fighter, but he's brilliant.
As for the fight:
- the battle in Palpatine's office was a stalemate until Yoda tossed off his one-liner about Palpatine fleeing. In fact, Palpatine's blast of lightning wounded Yoda worse than the Force push did to Palpatine. But that's simply because Palpatine had the power of true offensive techniques.
- Palpatine isn't necessarily a coward; I'd have done the same. There's no way I'd let the fate of my decades of planning rest on the outcome of a single fight with an amazingly powerful Jedi.
- Palpatine did manage to hold his own with Yoda. Sorry to the newbs out there who think Yoda owned him, but Yoda never managed to strike Palpatine. Every assault was parried. I once wrote a tremendous word-for-word representation on the fight in DarkNemesis's forums. When they fought on the podium, Palpatine and Yoda both [at various times] forced one another back.
[However, Yoda showed his slight superiority when he bested Palpatine in all the saber locks]
- If Yoda could have owned Palpatine, the Dark Lord would've never got off the pod the moment that Yoda disarmed him. Bottom line: Yoda would not simply blink and Palpatine disintigrate, as much as you'd like to think that.
- Palpatine fans: Sorry. Palpy was finally overpowered in both categories. Not to say that Yoda could kick his ass in ten seconds like some of the others think, but he'd eventually overcome Palpatine in almost any environment. But it makes sense. Yoda has several lifetimes of experience over Palpatine [who spent the past decade or so cooped up in the Chancellor's office].
I'll give ol' Palps that. The pods ordeal was very cool. A lot of people have excused Yoda's difficulty stopping a single pod on gravity. Well, a clever viewer will notice that Palpatine ripped three pods from their moorings and lifted them straight up, several yards, only to fling them back down.
This is in direct defiance with gravity, and Palpatine did this with simple ease. You'll notice that he doesn't just rip them from the mooring and let 'em drop. He picks them up, flings them several yards backward into the air, and then chucks 'em.
In Force powers, he's second only to Yoda [though the pod debacle could be argued] in the PT. Yoda and Sidious are closer matched in the Force than they are in sabers.
Yoda was revered all over the galaxy for being wise and knowledgeable. He may not be the most intelligent (IQ) person out there, but he's certainly got a fair share of it.
And since when was political efficacy a measure of intelligence? Since when is the ability to maneuver a sign of smarts, or better yet, battle smarts.
Is Bush the smartest guy in America? Was Napoleon the smartest guy in Europe? Was Hitler the smartest guy in Germany? These comparisons are silly.
Who said that? I don't get why you'd get defensive whenever someone has an argument against Sidious.
He was outdueled, hence he was disarmed. Like it or not, that's indisputable fact.
Not certain, as already established. Yoda outdueled him in that particular match, despite Sidious having a "home court advantage" of dictating the pace in his own office and chamber.
Check on the difference between Force and Work there.
Illustrious, first I'd like to point out something:
I agreed . . . with most of everything you put. I agreed with four points as compared to the other guys' one. I said Palpatine would be killed in combat against Yoda - either way.
Just in case you don't see that, I'll post it again:
I agreed . . . with most of everything you put. I agreed with four points as compared to the other guys' one. I said Palpatine would be killed in combat against Yoda - either way.
Perhaps a third time:
I agreed . . . with most of everything you put. I agreed with four points as compared to the other guys' one. I said Palpatine would be killed in combat against Yoda - either way.
Not to be rude, but that means that I've agreed with 80% of what you said.
Okay? Good.
Now. See, you call me "defensive" because I don't go to your extremes and say that Yoda would fart and Palpatine would roll over and die, because Yoda "is teh uber". Sorry. The entire notion that Yoda would own Sidious in the matter of seconds is ridiculous. I'm not going to imply it, because I believe it isn't true. Your definition of owned differs from mine.
To me, 'owned' is merely synonymous with an easy win. Which this would not be. Okay?
Secondly, I never said Palpatine was the smartest guy in the Republic. I simply said, intellectually, he was superior to Yoda. Which he is. I don't see Yoda ever beating Sidious intellectually, whether it be politically speaking or otherwise. The fact is, Yoda is never seen outsmarting Palpatine. But, Palpatine spent years duping Yoda. Until that fight in ROTS, Yoda was merely a puppet.
If Palpatine were the smartest man in the Republic, he wouldn't have ever needed people like Bevel Lemelisk and the Geonosians to design his super weapons. He could just do it himself. But, Palpatine is smarter than Yoda - and to deny it is foolish.
I NEVER said that he was NOT disarmed. I said that if Yoda could own him, Sidious would never have gotten off the podium AFTER he was disarmed
Illustrious, either you misunderstood, or I did. Please, go back and re read my post.
The pods:
- Palpatine performed a greater feat by lifting four pods in direct defiance with gravity [with mere ease] than Yoda did by stopping one with medium effort.
Registered: Feb 2006
Location: San Diego, California
Palpatine lifted 3 pods in the air a couple of feet, threw them forward a little bit, and let gravity do the rest.
Yoda on the other hand, stopped a pod in mid-air within half a second which was coming at him rather fast. He started rotating it, then threw it back up to Palpatine about the same speed at which it was coming down at him. Thats a hell of a lot more impressive than what Palpatine did.
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it would be more impressive, if sidious had just lifted them and let them drop as most people seem to thing. he actually tore them out of their moorings with no effort, held them above himself, and then threw them. people seem to have blinders on for anything sidious did during this fight and just look at yoda.
Of course me picking up a boulder while standing on top of a hill, lifting it over my head for more projection and power, then flinging it at a guy who's below me on the hill is more impressive than the guy who managed to block it and even manage to throw it back at me with the same amount of speed.
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"The ability to speak does not make you intelligent." - Sagacious Jedi Master Qui-Gon Jinn.
And to you, your interpretation of the word is about as relevant as Sidious' face to this fight. Isn't it funny that the only one who's used it the last couple of posts is you?
Sidious was outdueled with a saber. Fact. The script says so. You arguing this in terms of how much or how much he wasn't "owned" is picking straws and arguing semantics.
And Hitler spent years duping all of Germany, was the the most intelligent person there?
You must have a strange opinion of the what the world is or an extremely small vocabulary. I never claimed Sidious wasn't cunning or devious or insidious. But to claim he is smarter than Yoda or has more battle instincts and smarts is not true, nor was it evident in that fight. Yoda's mastery of the force seems to be even greater than Sidious' in that fight, does that not require some level of thinking ability to internalize the force to the degree he has? No?
What was evident was the he was in the chamber thousands of times before and knows exactly how to handle himself there. Yoda looked like he was caught in the headlights.
I didn't misunderstand your post. I just pointed out your inconsistency, your irrelevance, and your fallacy.
Apr 29th, 2006 06:51 PM
