Registered: Feb 2005
Location: Hiding from zombies
Well, whatever you folks can contribute. This is actually a very interesting thread, with a new spin on the battle at hand.
Basically, Dooku armed with a sword-rapier or Spanish rapier versus Mace Windu with a katana. This works with their respective styles to a degree, and it's an interesting "Which one is superior in this case" perspective.
I thought we already explained this,your underestimating Mace and overestimating Dooku,he isn't all powerful,Dooku maybe a good duelist,but if he couldn't keep up with Anakin in ROTS,what chance does he have against Mace?Mace is the more powerful duelist in this case,sure he was beaten by Dooku ibn a sparring match,but that was wayyy before Mace learned Vaapad,and remeber,Dooku is old,he may have skill and wisdom with age,but with age also comes frailness,now,I'm not trying to be a Mace fanboy,but Mace would overwelm Dooku just like he did Sids.And like in Shatterpoint and Clone Wars,Mace is willing to use Dark Side powers if neccessary,and as explained again in Shatterpoint,he loves to fightAnd he also has considerable knowledge of the Dark side.
Dooku isnt likely to know what a metal sword is. And nether does mace.
An equal fight. Give a modern special forces some muskets and arm the enemy same stuff. None of their training does them much good as the tactics are completely incompatible with these kind of weapons.
I think you are all underestimating Dooku because of his age. Yes age plays a part but only to the extent of the person getting tired easily. Dookus style makes up for that by using minimum energy. Just because Mace can use the darkside doesnt mean he has mastered it like Dooku has.
Registered: Jan 2006
Location: The epitome of my evolution.
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How od we know he mastered it? Whoop dee f*cking doo he can use sith lightning. What else does he use in the movies? Force push...yeah. Dooku's "mastery of the dark side" is an unknown factor.
After doing some indepth research... note most of this is not my own words, but the words of proffesional fencers and dudes who do this for living.
Hmm well the Katana is a heaver blade and can usually beat the rapier aside but can't respond in time or as fast as the rapier wielder can, while the rapier often can attack but afterwards can't recover or parry once it connects.
The katana is limited to about 7 or 8 cuts and a thrust where as the rapier is more verstile, and involves a greater range of techniques and moves. The rapier's penetrating stabs have great reach and are very quick, particularly on the disengage. But it can still be grabbed and lacks cutting offense.
The katana has a well-rounded offence to defence, and is much more symmetrical in its handling. It can make great close-in draw cuts and is an agile weapon with quick footwork of its own. It can be wielded well enough one-handed if need be, too. Obviously, a katana can't match the rapier thrust for thrust.
While the rapier certainly is a "point-based" threat and does not work well close in, it makes up for this by being able to out thrust cutting swords, like the katana, by about three feet of range using in its foyning method specialized footwork such as the lunge. A long lunge can strike a lethal hit from well outside the effective distance of a man with a long cutting sword.
If a longer, straighter, double-edged sword adept at stabbing attacks could not out-thrust the rapier, we may well wonder what chance a shorter single edged katana, devised for slashing, would have? Besides that, the rapier was devised to outfight blades that could strike with both their edges in sixteen possible lines of attack—twice the number employed by a katana—as well as trap and bind with their large cross-guards which the katana also did not possess.
The katana itself s not a slow sword. It has a good deal of agility as well as being able to thrust some. Kenjutsu cuts are delivered in quick succession using a flowing manner. Its two-hand grip can generate great power by using a sort of "torqueing" method with additional force added from the hips. The katana's cutting power and edge sharpness is also legendary (although often the subject of exaggeration, sometimes absurdly so). It is a sword of war after all, and faced a variety of arms and armors. While not every puncture with a rapier would be lethal, to be sure, virtually every cut by a katana was intended to kill instantly.
Now I think Dooku would take this since makashi is alot like dueling with rapier (we often see Dooku using one hand), but then again Mace I think would adapt well to the katana... really now that I think about it I don't know.
It's hard to compair lightsabers styles to actually swordplay.
Registered: Feb 2005
Location: Hiding from zombies
I'm glad someone came up with a worthwhile response. Bravo.
And I agree with the points provided. While a katana is pretty deadly and quick, Mace will have to slightly alter his style to utilize it, and he'll be slower for it. Meanwhile, Dooku can more or less rely on the thrusts and swipes he uses traditionally.
And the lightsaber styles are similar to real fighting forms... Why? Because that's what they're based on, and a human being can only wave a stick so many ways.
Uh, aren't rapiers far more effective than Katanas? Katanas actually suck, compared to Middle-Ages european broad/bastard swords. I'd assume rapiers to be more efficient than those since they replaced them.
Registered: Feb 2005
Location: Hiding from zombies
Except that the lightsaber DOES have weight- in the handle. If anything, it'd be far more natural to use a regular blade than one without any weight in the handle. Also, I seem to recall that lightsaber blades have devices to give them some measure of counter balance. This would certainly explain why the in-movie fights clearly work just as if the lightsabers had weight in the blade.
A skilled rapier master could probably hit a samurai six times before the samurai got to hit him once, but in general use, it was nullifed by any serious armor.
But I agree- the Japanese katana gets way too much hype, and the myth that all European blades suck is ridiculous. I was in Barnes and Nobles today and I found like 120 books on Samurai and their martial arts, and exactly NONE on fencing or European swordplay. Not even some copies of the Florentine or Germanic works. Talk about ridiculous. I didn't realize the Japanese had stock in B & N.
I think Katanas alledged power comes from Japanese RPG "badasses" metrosexuals wielding Katanas in a futuristic environment and pwning everyone effortlessly.
I read something interesting a while ago about how bad Katanas are compared to Middle Aged European swords... I'll see if I can find it...
Katana's are shitty in certain situations true enough... really it depends on how the sword is being used. Katana's are not meant for extened duels... they are meant to kill and to kill fast.
Registered: Jan 2006
Location: The epitome of my evolution.
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Woah Dooku was a sith? Wowzorz. Well the "most pwoerful force user in history" was a ith as well ,good thing it did him...
There is still no evidence how "in-tune" with the foce Dooku actually was. So saying hes greater in the force than mace is just an asusmption, as is Mace being "greater" in the force than Dooku.
Apr 25th, 2006 12:09 AM
