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Balrog versus Sauron
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Allankles
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Incanus
but you are forgetting that it was Huans destiny to not be slain until he met the greatest wolf to ever live, which as Charcharoth, who was fed by Morgoth himself, and Isildur was a decendent of Beren and Luthien, who faced Morgoth himself and took a Silmaril AND killed Charcharoth, and in actuality, Isildur was part Maiar as well, as Luthien was the daughter of Melian the Maia, e was part Eldar, from King Thingol, and part Man, from Beren. And yes, the One is the reason Sauron lived, but uu r forgetting that during the War of the Jewels, Sauon never entered combat because of his rank, the same as Morgoth never did, they knew they would be the sole focus of attack, and most likely perish. Oh and i just remebered the "Blue Wizards" were sent by Orome the Hunter.


Gothmog had the same rank as Sauron and didn't mind wading into the front lines against guys who could kill 10 trolls single handedly.

Isildur had some Maiar blood but is was diluted by 1000's of years and over 20 mortal generations. Melian the Maia Isildur's is descended from wasn't all that powerful either Charcharoth, Turin and others were mightier than she was.

Anyway it's far fetched to say Sauron was greater in combat than more than one Balrog, considering that a single Balrog could match him for combat prowess (Dune's Bane). Sauron would be favorite against one unheralded Balrog (like Dune's Bane) but no more than that.


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Old Post Jun 23rd, 2009 07:43 AM
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Incanus
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but Durins Bane could have been a powerful balrog, it was never said, and if it was the match of sauron, he could probly handle at least 2 weak ones,possibly the 3 weakest, as not all maia were powerful. Because, since maia are of the same race as the Valar, they are just the weaker ones. I f they were far more powerful is some cases, and slightly more [powerful, i a few, then they could be equal of the Valar. Well, at least Mandos and Lorien or something. Maybe Nienna. And Melian the maia was able to hold off all the armies of Angband from Doriath.and Gothmog had all the balrogs AND a huge troll guard with him at all times. plus Turin was a freind of Thingols somewhere in his family i for got where so he was allowed to cross, and it was Berens destiny to pass thru, see Luthien Tinuviel, and eventually claim a Silmaril, for if he died crossing the border, then Numenor wouldnt have existed, and Elwing was descended from him, and she wedded Earendil, who is practically the only reason it was shown to the Valar the state of the world, thereby bringing about the downfall of Morgoth. So u cannt make desicions on how "powerful" they were just because they could cross the border. Oh and I just realized, Morgoths ruin WAS brought from Fingolfin, as Earendil was a DESCENDENT OF HIM, thruu Idril Celebrindal. =-) i just figured it out=-) Plus Gothmog was almost killed by Feanor, but another Balrog lashed a whip of fire on his legs, and Gothmog smote his helm, and a white flame lept up. Which means, Gothmog would have died, and im pretty sure Sauron could handle Feanor in combat.

Last edited by Incanus on Jun 23rd, 2009 at 01:21 PM

Old Post Jun 23rd, 2009 01:10 PM
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Allankles
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Incanus
Plus Gothmog was almost killed by Feanor, but another Balrog lashed a whip of fire on his legs, and Gothmog smote his helm, and a white flame lept up. Which means, Gothmog would have died, and im pretty sure Sauron could handle Feanor in combat.


Actually Gothmog had no problems with Feanor and given that Feanor was arguably the most powerful elf to ever live, was likely more powerful in spirit than Sauron himself.

Feanor remember poured his spirit into the creation of the Silmarils and created other artifacts of power that no one could duplicate not even the Valar. Gothmog wounded Feanor several times (and only Feanor's powerful spirit allowed him to fight on) he later died from those wounds and his body turned to ash as his powerful spirit left his body.

It was Fingon not Feanor, who was killed through a sneak attack from a Balrog which helped Gothmog smash his head fatally, and the text says that Fingon held his own (he wasn't winning) and it was Gothmog who "cut a dalk wedge through" the host of men and elves.


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Old Post Jun 23rd, 2009 06:32 PM
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leonheartmm
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if i remember correctly. in the fellowship of the ring, it was stated clearly that the balrog in moria, aka durin's bane was one of power to be feared second only to the dark lord sauron. dont remember who it was who said it, either gandalf or the fellowship when talking to galadriel, and he was defeated in the end by gandalf and gandalf admits and is stated many times to be weaker than sauron. also being descended from a maier or valar doesnt necessarily make u stronger than an elf. seeing as thingol has already slain a balrog. and the feats of feanor are by far superior to sauron , even with the one ring. id also recon that fingolfin was greater than sauron even with the one ring and earendil cud also be compareable. lets also remember that the creating of the sylmarils is feat that no valar cud replicate.

id say that sauron WITHOUT the one ring cud lose to gothmog 4/10 but WITH the one ring, i dont think so.

Old Post Jun 23rd, 2009 06:39 PM
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Allankles
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That's what I was saying. Feanor had a poweful spirit and just like Hurin or Turin were for Men, Feanor was a uniquely powerful Elf. And Gothmog wounded him several times, injuries that eventually killed Feanor. The text is quite clear in talking about how Feanor remarkably fought on, this was because the strength of his spirit, which was so powerful it incinerated his body when he died.

Also Gothmog was defeated by one of the mightiest elves Echthelion via a desperation attack, Gothmog had wounded him several times (one of his arms had been paralized) and Echthelion sacrificed himself to kill Gothmog.

Huan, Luthien and Isildur never needed to sacrifice their lives defeating Sauron. Gothmog was powerful in combat.

As far as Durin's Bane goes (I'd favor Sauron over him) but Sauron was also defeated by less than Gandalf.


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Old Post Jun 23rd, 2009 06:51 PM
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leonheartmm
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^actually, many people forget that feanor was WEAKNED at the time he fought outnumbered against the balrogs. he had put much of his SPIRIT in the creation of the sylmarils and that was one of the reasons they cudnt be replicated. he was LESS than what he usually was when he died.

Old Post Jun 23rd, 2009 07:18 PM
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Allankles
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonheartmm
^actually, many people forget that feanor was WEAKNED at the time he fought outnumbered against the balrogs. he had put much of his SPIRIT in the creation of the sylmarils and that was one of the reasons they cudnt be replicated. he was LESS than what he usually was when he died.


He was not at the "peak of his might" but he was far from weakened. Even in death his spirit was like fire, incinerating his body as it passed to the halls of the dead. Feanor would have sent Sauron running, Sauron was ever sneaky and prone to retreat when he didn't have all the advantages.


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Iboga chose not to fight, to allow himself to evolve. He had the wisdom to abandon the actions of war when he knew they would no longer serve him.

Old Post Jun 23rd, 2009 07:56 PM
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Incanus
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i sould have sworn it was feanor that was attacked from behind...... but anyways, just beacause he was extroardinarily powerful, dosnt mean he was a great warrior, even tho he was. If u refer to that "points" system thingy described earlier, then most of Feanors points would have been into crafting, like most of the Noldor, hence their friendship with the dwarves later. And the reson he could even MAKE the Silmarils, or he wouldnt have had the skill. He was named the spirit of fire because he was very active, not because it was so potent, but yeah he did turn into ash. And where did it say Gothmog or Ecthelion was paralyzed when he died? My book didnt say that, it just said he was killed. You are forgetting Gothmog, being a balrog, had immense strength because he was a balrog, being a very powerful maiar, and having that size, strength, and ability to take damage, u forget Sauron could possibly take the form of a balrog, who says he cant? As long as it was in the First Age, he could. End of the second and entire third, he wouldnt but thats a different story..... And still you forget that Huan would not be killed until later, when Charcharoth, ENHANCED BY A SILMARIL, killed him.

Last edited by Incanus on Jun 23rd, 2009 at 10:14 PM

Old Post Jun 23rd, 2009 10:03 PM
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Zampanů
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I think it is interesting that Gandalf the White = Sauron and Gandalf the Gray = Durin's Bane. It clearly doesn't decide the match but it is definitely worth considering.


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Old Post Jun 23rd, 2009 11:06 PM
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Allankles
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Incanus
i sould have sworn it was feanor that was attacked from behind...... but anyways, just beacause he was extroardinarily powerful, dosnt mean he was a great warrior, even tho he was. If u refer to that "points" system thingy described earlier, then most of Feanors points would have been into crafting, like most of the Noldor, hence their friendship with the dwarves later. And the reson he could even MAKE the Silmarils, or he wouldnt have had the skill. He was named the spirit of fire because he was very active, not because it was so potent, but yeah he did turn into ash. And where did it say Gothmog or Ecthelion was paralyzed when he died? My book didnt say that, it just said he was killed. You are forgetting Gothmog, being a balrog, had immense strength because he was a balrog, being a very powerful maiar, and having that size, strength, and ability to take damage, u forget Sauron could possibly take the form of a balrog, who says he cant? As long as it was in the First Age, he could. End of the second and entire third, he wouldnt but thats a different story..... And still you forget that Huan would not be killed until later, when Charcharoth, ENHANCED BY A SILMARIL, killed him.


Ecthelion was battered and bruised and could not use one of his arms and in his battle with Gothmog had been dispossessed of his weapons, so he used the long sharp protusion on his helm and died in killing Gothmog as they both drowned.

Charcharoth wasn't really enhanced more like he was getting burnt by the Silmaril and was driven even more insane by the pain. I'd imagine it was more like desperation as the Silmaril was killing him.


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Iboga chose not to fight, to allow himself to evolve. He had the wisdom to abandon the actions of war when he knew they would no longer serve him.

Old Post Jun 23rd, 2009 11:55 PM
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Allankles
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@ Incanus, one last point about Huan vs Sauron. I believe in Tolkien's universe a lot of prophecies were self fulfilling unless they came from Morgoth who seemed to be able to will prophecies into reality because he had tainted the fates of the world before it was even born.

So I think it was a self fulfilling prophecy, Huan had assistance and Sauron just didn't have the necessary power/ferocity to defeat Huan. There was no luck or divine intervention involved.

The prophecies about the last battle though are all about divine intervention and Turin will defeat Morgoth by divine providence, the finale in Illuvatar's song.


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Iboga chose not to fight, to allow himself to evolve. He had the wisdom to abandon the actions of war when he knew they would no longer serve him.

Old Post Jun 24th, 2009 12:15 AM
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Incanus
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hmmm yeah ur right he was more in pain, because of the evil inside him, and it was a slightly self fulfilling, but Huan grew impatient, something it had never said he did before, so it COULD have been divine intervention that killed him and Charcharoth. But where did u read about the Dagor Dagollach? i never even seen more than mention........ but Sauroned wasnt weakened, he was just dazed for a second to give Huan a moment to get up because of his malice, Luthien just made Sauron dizzy is all. And it said that "The battle of Huan the Wolfhound and Wolf-Sauron was terrible. tho Huan emerged victorious." Huan, being a hound of Orome, i think it was partly that Sauron was to weak, (to a small degree) and it was Orome that might have helped him win, because Ororme knew about Charcharoth possibly. So it COULD have been a Vala as the reson Huan won.

Last edited by Incanus on Jun 24th, 2009 at 12:41 AM

Old Post Jun 24th, 2009 12:37 AM
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Incanus
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oh a btw against 2 balrogs + Gothmog Sauorn would stand no chance at all. Against 2 I would say an even fight. Against 1, he would win.Gothmog WAS limited in his powers, as he couldnt shape shift, OR possibly even talk. I know he dragged Hurin to Angband with mockery, but it could have been thru some other form, like orcs or something. And Balrogs are fairly slow in confined places, whats to say Sauron couldnt get Gothmog into a confined place where he couldnt fly, and then hit him in the back? I im pretty sure Sauron could be fast at need........ and it is possible Gothmog would doubt himself with Sauron working his malice in him thru speech.

Last edited by Incanus on Jun 24th, 2009 at 01:44 AM

Old Post Jun 24th, 2009 01:42 AM
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Incanus
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and four hobbits out ran a balog (durins bane) so couldnt Sauron out run Gothmog? That whip and sword look like u have tio stand still to use them because of the sweeping motions. And lets face it, hobbits rnt very fast, they are SLOWER THAN DWARVES and yes, dwarves are natural sprinters, very dangerous over SHORT distances. (quoted from who else? Gimli son of Gloin) They are still slow though. Both hobbits and Valaraukar.

Old Post Jun 24th, 2009 01:31 PM
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Khamul 666
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how is that even hard to decide of course sauron! balrogs srved him saurons master created everything why the hell do you thin orcs trolls ringwraiths goblins dragons spiders ect listen to him because he was 2nd in command! sauron is to morgoth as the witch king is to sauron
morgoth is the creator of everyting evil morgoth was worse than satin !

Old Post Aug 1st, 2009 08:24 AM
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ares834
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Allankles
That's what I was saying. Feanor had a poweful spirit and just like Hurin or Turin were for Men, Feanor was a uniquely powerful Elf. And Gothmog wounded him several times, injuries that eventually killed Feanor. The text is quite clear in talking about how Feanor remarkably fought on, this was because the strength of his spirit, which was so powerful it incinerated his body when he died.

But this was not a fight mano e mano between Feanor and Gothmog. There were many other Balrogs attacking Feanor as well.

quote:
Also Gothmog was defeated by one of the mightiest elves Echthelion via a desperation attack, Gothmog had wounded him several times (one of his arms had been paralized) and Echthelion sacrificed himself to kill Gothmog.

Yes. But at the time of their battle Ecthelion's sheild arm was useless. Also Gothmog was unable to best Hurin and Fingon without the intervention of other Balrogs.

quote:
Huan, Luthien and Isildur never needed to sacrifice their lives defeating Sauron. Gothmog was powerful in combat.

FIrst Huan and Luthien were working togther. Plus Luthien is insanly powerful and was even able to put Morgoth to sleep. HUan is also powerful and was able to kill Carcharoth, a very powerful foe. Second, Isildur never beat Sauron... He was killed by Gil-Galad and Elendil, but managed to kill both in the process. Isildur than simply cut the ring of Sauron's "dead" body.

Regardless, Ancalgon or Glaurung are more powerful than either.


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Old Post Aug 1st, 2009 03:40 PM
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Incanus
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No, Gothmog would kill Glaurung, Ancalagon would only win due to the3 fact that he can fly. Real high.


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Lercuvanten i moli Mordoreo
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Turgon aran Gondolin tortha gar a matha, i vegil Glamdring gud dae lo, dam an Glamhoth.

Old Post Aug 3rd, 2009 02:36 PM
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ares834
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Incanus
No, Gothmog would kill Glaurung, Ancalagon would only win due to the3 fact that he can fly. Real high.

Gothmog had a hard time with Hurin, Glaurung dominated, literally, Turin in seconds. Also Glaurung was able to route entire armies. b


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Old Post Aug 4th, 2009 02:34 AM
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Incanus
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Glarunbg only mtook Turin because of the facts of 1: Turin was human, and suceptible to his Dragon Eyes, and 2: He can bvreath fire, which cant kill Gothmog.

Besides, would you run if you saw Gothmog first, or just avoid him, then run when a giant lizard thing breathing fire comes out and tries to kill you?


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Anar
Nanye i ne Anduril i macil Elendilo
Lercuvanten i moli Mordoreo
Isil
Turgon aran Gondolin tortha gar a matha, i vegil Glamdring gud dae lo, dam an Glamhoth.

Old Post Aug 4th, 2009 01:18 PM
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Allankles
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by ares834
Gothmog had a hard time with Hurin, Glaurung dominated, literally, Turin in seconds. Also Glaurung was able to route entire armies. b


Gothmog killed Men and Elves by the bucketful in the Dagor Bragollach, the Battle of Unnumbered Tears (where he cut a bloody swath through the armies of Men and Elves) and the Battle of Gondolin. Only exceptional Elves and Men held their own against him and even then, not for very long.

Feanor fought Gothmog one on one and was said to have been wounded several times, you also have to remember Feanor had Elves around him in the Dagor Bragollach.


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Iboga chose not to fight, to allow himself to evolve. He had the wisdom to abandon the actions of war when he knew they would no longer serve him.

Old Post Aug 4th, 2009 03:47 PM
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