Underrated:
ANH Obi-Wan (he lost on purpose to Vader, he would have done better if he wanted to live, and he isn't that old...)
OT Vader (The conflict in him was holding him back in ROTJ and in ESB he was toying. If he was fighting another jedi then Luke, he wouldn't have no problems.)
Dooku (Anakin got lucky and Dooku was holding back cuz Sidious told him.)
Overrated:
Plo Koon (He isn't anything special Yaddle could handle him...)
Ragnos (He was good with the force, but not as good as many people think. He cant destroy Jedi's just by looking at them. Still he might be the strongest.)
DE Sidious (He knows a whole lot of the Darkside, but I don't see him as a great warrior)
Boba Fett (he is specialized in bounty hunting, not battling)
Darth Maul (He was a great fighter/assasin but he isn't smart enough to survive against jedi who try to surprise him.)
I agree, A>B>C arguments dont always work. Saying Obi wan > Anakin > Dooku doesnt work, but neither does saying Anakin > Dooku > Obi wan. Ofcourse that is besides the point, its unclear whether Anakin fairly defeated Dooku or not.
Could you put what GL said in his own words? I dont remember him saying something like that. Im not saying your lieing, just give the exact quote so I can examine it better.
Well yeah, almost *everyone* has greater control over his emotions than Anakin. That would include Dooku, but apparently that didnt save him. Emotional control is overrated. Actually I could argue, Anakins real power is unleashed when he *does* lose control over his emotions, because emotions feed the power of the dark side.
You think Obi wan wasnt going through emotional anguish as well? Obi wan was fighting his long time friend and padawan in a duel that would most likely end in death.
"You were like a brother to me, Anakin!"
At first, Obi wan refused to even go after Anakin when Yoda told him to. And after the duel was all over, Obi wan was at the point of tears.
Thats called strategy...Obi wan was just being a smart fighter. Anakin could be the most powerful person in the universe, but if he fights like an idiot then he wont defeat anyone. Im not disputing that Anakin has more potential and even raw power than Obi wan, but that alone isnt going to help him in real duels. Obi wan is an overall better warrior than Anakin, and the duel demonstrates that.
WTF? I fail to see how this is even relevent.
'Close, but no cigar.
And ofcourse the reverse to that logic is, Anakin knew Obi wan inside out as well.
Subjective interpretation.
For all you know, it was just another ploy to get Anakin to make a mistake.
Obi wan had no unfair advantages as I have explained, and again, give me the exact quote where it says Anakin would of won. Not that it matters. Kenobi won. Period.
---> Anakin isnt a better warrior than Kenobi. Mace? Sidious? Dont make me laugh. Anakin has more potential ofcourse, but his potential hasnt been realized enough to hang with the big boys.
Thats a pretty perfect list you have there. And so far I think you are the only one who agrees with me that the Count is underrated. He would not get wtf pwned by Yoda, is better than Mace and could possibly beat Sids depending on the situation/environment. And there are many factors which determined the outcome of his ROTS fight - and Anakin being a better duelist is not one of them.
Could you put what GL said in his own words? I dont remember him saying something like that. Im not saying your lieing, just give the exact quote so I can examine it better.
Just what I heard from someone who has the commentary. I could be wrong though.
Well yeah, almost *everyone* has greater control over his emotions than Anakin. That would include Dooku, but apparently that didnt save him. Emotional control is overrated. Actually I could argue, Anakins real power is unleashed when he *does* lose control over his emotions, because emotions feed the power of the dark side.
Anakin wasn't terribly emotionally stressed while fighting Dooku; he was while fighting Kenobi.
You think Obi wan wasnt going through emotional anguish as well? Obi wan was fighting his long time friend and padawan in a duel that would most likely end in death.
"You were like a brother to me, Anakin!"
At first, Obi wan refused to even go after Anakin when Yoda told him to. And after the duel was all over, Obi wan was at the point of tears.
Anakin loved Kenobi too. They were brothers. It's just that Anakin was going through the same thing Kenobi (Losing a friend and a "brother) plus losing the love of his life that he has done so much for.
Thats called strategy...Obi wan was just being a smart fighter. Anakin could be the most powerful person in the universe, but if he fights like an idiot then he wont defeat anyone. Im not disputing that Anakin has more potential and even raw power than Obi wan, but that alone isnt going to help him in real duels. Obi wan is an overall better warrior than Anakin, and the duel demonstrates that.
I agree, and his tactics saved him from losing.
WTF? I fail to see how this is even relevent.
Running away from Anakin doesn't exactly constitute to winning. When you beat the snot out of someone, they escape to a more advantageous position (whether it be a highground or simply hiding)
And ofcourse the reverse to that logic is, Anakin knew Obi wan inside out as well.
Not to the same extent. Kenobi was the teacher. He taught and evaluated most of what Anakin knows. Anakin is the student. Kenobi is the teacher. Anakin does know Kenobi from their cohesion in the Clone Wars, however due to his blind rage, may not have used this to his advantage on Mustafar; unlike Kenobi.
Subjective interpretation.
For all you know, it was just another ploy to get Anakin to make a mistake.
That's a possibility. But I don't think Kenobi has ever consciously played weak when he could have fought strong. Doesn't seem Jedi-like in the least.
Anakin isnt a better warrior than Kenobi. Mace? Sidious? Dont make me laugh. Anakin has more potential ofcourse, but his potential hasnt been realized enough to hang with the big boys.
More than enough to hang with, you know, Dooku who held off Mace in the Clone Wars.
Dooku still had a much better handle on his emotions than Anakin did, and you didnt respond to my point about why emotions could be considered a source of power.
Well if your going to be like that, I could easily say that Obi wan had the added emotional anguish of seeing the republic(democracy) crumble before his eyes, having all his brethren(the jedi) slaughtered like animals, and generally all that he has ever worked or hoped for during his life get shattered. You cant really put a value on who was 'suffering more'.
So you admit Kenobi is a better all-around warrior?
Tactics again. Its all part of the game.
You cant really speculate on that. They both knew eachother very well, that should be enough.
Sometimes desperate situations call for desperate measures. But thats not really the point, Im saying you cant just speculate that because Obi wan looked a bit winded, that he was on the point of defeat.
The ROTS novel makes it clear that it was all a stage between Anakin and Dooku. A scheme of Palpatine. And even in the movie, when Palpatine says 'Kill him' Dooku puts up an expression of 'WTF?'.
So really you cant use Anakin > Dooku as an argument of why Anakin > Obi wan. There are other factors you have to consider.
Overrated: Darth Sidious, Malak, Luke, Revan, Yoda (in the novels I've reas whenever a jedi thinks he/she might not win, they always think about Yoda)
Underrated: Plo Koon (he should have lasted in ROTS seeing as how he lead the republic to victory by himself).
dooku overrated, maul underrated. dooku is only overrated when people say he could beat sids, i disagree with that, but maul held his own against multiple jedi, and the black sun was crippled because of maul.
Registered: Jan 2006
Location: The epitome of my evolution.
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I agree that Anakin would have beaten Obi-Wan if time went on more. I also agree that Anakin doesn't get nearly as much credit as he should, despiet his whining.
Registered: Sep 2005
Location: Picking up some power converters.
Yeah. I'd just like to add a little. Dooku is overrated a lot. Meaning, by a lot of people, not like, they imagine him to be ridiculous sums of power greater than he actually is. Also, Maul is usually either overrated or underrated, by different people. Some say he could beat Vader, some say he would be beaten by TPM Obi Wan.
Registered: May 2006
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Star Wars Facts
Overrated: Grievous
Underrated: Revan, Malak, The Exile, Obi-Wan, Maul, Anakin Skywalker, Mace, Kit Fisto, Most of the Jedi Council members, The Gungan Grand Army, Marka Ragnos
Perfectly Rated: Jango & Boba
Marka Ragnos
"The chains of the grave cannot hold a Dark Lord of the Sith..."
— Marka Ragnos
Marka Ragnos was a half-breed Dark Lord of the Sith of tremendous physical power as well as a frightening grasp of the dark side. He was one of the most powerful force users ever, as he defeated Simus in combat, proving himself worthy of the mantle of Dark Lord of the Sith.
Feared, obeyed, and admired among the Sith, the details of his century-long reign are few, although his death marked the end of the high point of the Sith Empire, despite his reluctance to continue expansion. Immediately following his funeral, a schism erupted between the leaders of the Sith, and further events led to a major war with the Galactic Republic and, because the schism was never healed, ultimately the end of their interstellar empire.
His death resulted in the rise of another Sith Lord, Naga Sadow, shortly before the Great Hyperspace War. His spirit lingered in the Valley of the Dark Lords on Korriban, long after his death.
About one millennium after his death, Marka's spirit was summoned from the grave using a pair of Sith talismans and crowned Exar Kun as the new Dark Lord, and Ulic Qel-Droma as Kun's apprentice, all in an attempt to restore the lost empire of a thousand years prior. The Great Sith War devastated the galaxy once again, but the Sith Empire was not restored.
Ragnos's spirit dwelt in his tomb until once again returning from beyond the grave, this time summoned by a Sith cult known as the Disciples of Ragnos whose leader was Tavion, Desann's student.
Tavion used an ancient scepter made by Ragnos to drain residual Force energy and use it to empower her followers. She then planned to use the collected energy to resurrect Ragnos. When Jaden Korr entered the tomb, intending to stop Tavion, she managed to resurrect Ragnos by allowing his spirit to possess her body, but was nevertheless defeated by Jaden. Ragnos's ghost was forced back into his sarcophagus, screaming that he would return.
Marka Ragnos didn't wield a lightsaber, the common weapon of the Sith Lords and the Jedi Knights. He wielded a Sith sword, consisting of a metal blade enhanced by Sith sorcery, a weapon of the primitive Sith race.
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Jun 5th, 2006 09:45 PM
