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MIDDLE EARTH vs AMERICA
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Lord Lucien
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Kind of useless to lead 150 Elves to their death just to save them for later... and I don't think they foresaw the Uruks employing pyrotechnics.


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Old Post Aug 19th, 2009 12:20 AM
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Khamul 666
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they were there to strike them when they arrived on the wall. they were also a volley force to attack behind cover


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This thing all things devours:
Birds, beasts, trees, flowers;
Gnaws iron, bites steel;
Grinds hard stones to meal;
Slays king ruins town,
And beats high mountain down.

Old Post Aug 19th, 2009 02:51 AM
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Lord Lucien
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Morgromir
they were there to strike them when they arrived on the wall. they were also a volley force to attack behind cover
Which is what they didn't do. If you had a quiver of arrows and a bow to fire them, wouldn't you want to kill as many of the enemy at a distance before you risk being hacked to pieces? Aragorn gave a dumb command there. Kill as many Uruk as possible with arrows, then move in and kill as many more with swords. It's a very simple concept.


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Old Post Aug 19th, 2009 03:44 AM
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Khamul 666
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actually it isnt if every battle was played out that way ,battle would be one big game and the archers are good but in that situation friendly fire would be common if they stayed back ,plus he had hardly any swordsman still standing
If he hadnt, they wouldve had time to get into formation , and simplely trample them into the ground if you remember there were 10s of thousands left they filled the entire valley aragorn and smoe archers wouldnt have been able to hold out for more than a few minutes and whats evenmore proof , is that in the books there were no elves legolas said he wished it so the movies made it come true


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This thing all things devours:
Birds, beasts, trees, flowers;
Gnaws iron, bites steel;
Grinds hard stones to meal;
Slays king ruins town,
And beats high mountain down.

Old Post Aug 19th, 2009 04:22 AM
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Lord Lucien
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Morgromir
actually it isnt if every battle was played out that way ,battle would be one big game and the archers are good but in that situation friendly fire would be common if they stayed back ,plus he had hardly any swordsman still standing
If he hadnt, they wouldve had time to get into formation , and simplely trample them into the ground if you remember there were 10s of thousands left they filled the entire valley aragorn and smoe archers wouldnt have been able to hold out for more than a few minutes and whats evenmore proof , is that in the books there were no elves legolas said he wished it so the movies made it come true
Ok, this is getting ridiculous.

More dead bad guys=fewer left to fight in melee. The fewer enemies left to fight, the longer one can survive to kill more enemies. As you pointed out, almost 10,000 Uruks. The less Uruks there are, the better. Get it?

The Elves were already in formation. They were standing back there, bows out, arrows ready. All it took was Aragorn's word, and they fired in to a crowd that contained nothing but Uruks (and Gimli face down in the mud). Every Uruk who had rushed in dropped to the ground with an arrow stuck in them. That is smart. No Elves were killed, and they were able to take down a score of Uruks. But instead of getting these master archers to fire again, thus killing more Uruks, Aragorn led a suicidal charge that led to the death of every single Lorian Elf. If Aragorn had just ordered them to fire off all their arrows and THEN charge after they were depleted, more Uruks would have been killed in the initial battle.

Seriously, what do you not understand about this horrendously simple concept?


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Old Post Aug 19th, 2009 04:55 AM
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Khamul 666
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rofl this is funny i keep on thinking why its hard for you ro see mine its hard for me to see yours both ways worked in ways were both right it varies from ppls perspective
back to middle earth VS USA seeing that the US military consists of more than 400,000all armend with auto weapons and heavy weapons


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This thing all things devours:
Birds, beasts, trees, flowers;
Gnaws iron, bites steel;
Grinds hard stones to meal;
Slays king ruins town,
And beats high mountain down.

Old Post Aug 19th, 2009 05:38 AM
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ares834
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There was only one elf at the Battle of the Hornburg. shifty


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Old Post Aug 19th, 2009 06:48 AM
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Lord Lucien
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Morgromir
rofl this is funny i keep on thinking why its hard for you ro see mine its hard for me to see yours both ways worked in ways were both right it varies from ppls perspective
back to middle earth VS USA seeing that the US military consists of more than 400,000all armend with auto weapons and heavy weapons
I'm legitimately confused as to how you think yours works.


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Old Post Aug 19th, 2009 06:56 AM
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Khamul 666
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same here ,im just saying that there werent any eles at helm deep ,and that the movie made him do that because its what ppl want to see (they dont expect anyone to have any expierience in strategy wheather from games or real life )
in the book he did that because he didnt have a couple hundred elves with him just yeomen that werent that fast for an archer and probably would be more useful gaurding the gap


__________________
This thing all things devours:
Birds, beasts, trees, flowers;
Gnaws iron, bites steel;
Grinds hard stones to meal;
Slays king ruins town,
And beats high mountain down.

Old Post Aug 19th, 2009 12:59 PM
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Zampanó
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quote:
there werent any elves at helm deep

False. There clearly were elves at helm's deep. Aragorn used them poorly. The movie illustrates this well.

If your contention is that there were no elves present in the Book (which I doubt, but could be the case) then you still have to admit that movie Aragorn used the elves poorly. And the point remains that more volleys > fewer volleys. So he would have wasted human archers too.


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Old Post Aug 19th, 2009 08:02 PM
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Incanus
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There were no elves at Helms Deep, and Eomer was fighting there to, Gimli wasnt tossed, or anything. Gimli jsut came out of the shadows "Khazad! Khazad ai menu! And there was a form coming form the rocks and a flash of steel, and the orcs fell to the ground dead." Gimli stayed back, no elves, and Erkenbrand of the Westfold came to the rescue with Gandalf, not Eomer.


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Anar
Nanye i ne Anduril i macil Elendilo
Lercuvanten i moli Mordoreo
Isil
Turgon aran Gondolin tortha gar a matha, i vegil Glamdring gud dae lo, dam an Glamhoth.

Old Post Aug 19th, 2009 11:21 PM
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Khamul 666
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main point is that there wer no elves and the movie wasnt strategic the archers couldve simply took out priority targets and cut their losses by a large percentage


__________________
This thing all things devours:
Birds, beasts, trees, flowers;
Gnaws iron, bites steel;
Grinds hard stones to meal;
Slays king ruins town,
And beats high mountain down.

Old Post Aug 20th, 2009 02:46 AM
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ares834
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Incanus
There were no elves at Helms Deep

Nope. There was an elf. shifty


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Old Post Aug 20th, 2009 06:05 AM
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Lord Lucien
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Morgromir
same here ,im just saying that there werent any eles at helm deep ,and that the movie made him do that because its what ppl want to see (they dont expect anyone to have any expierience in strategy wheather from games or real life )
in the book he did that because he didnt have a couple hundred elves with him just yeomen that werent that fast for an archer and probably would be more useful gaurding the gap
...right. What Red ^ said.

I haven't been arguing that there were Elves present at Helm's Deep in the novel---where and why you brought that up is beyond even my superhuman comprehension. Movie-Aragorn did a piss-poor job using the full potential of a brigade of Elven archers. No. Question. About it... señor.


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I'm not going to lie: I despise children. There, I've said it.

Old Post Aug 20th, 2009 07:30 AM
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Khamul 666
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i agree but its just the usually movie cappy strategy


__________________
This thing all things devours:
Birds, beasts, trees, flowers;
Gnaws iron, bites steel;
Grinds hard stones to meal;
Slays king ruins town,
And beats high mountain down.

Old Post Aug 21st, 2009 02:17 AM
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Incanus
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Guys, Aragorn was a pretty good tactician, and would know how to use elves in combat. There were no elves. There were no suicidal charges. There was no Haldir. There is no life. There is no death. There is the Force.


__________________
Anar
Nanye i ne Anduril i macil Elendilo
Lercuvanten i moli Mordoreo
Isil
Turgon aran Gondolin tortha gar a matha, i vegil Glamdring gud dae lo, dam an Glamhoth.

Old Post Aug 21st, 2009 08:56 PM
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Lord Lucien
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...

......

There's cake. Everybody loves cake.


__________________
I'm not going to lie: I despise children. There, I've said it.

Old Post Aug 22nd, 2009 03:32 AM
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Khamul 666
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umm you messed it up a little...well alot theres more mumble jumble to it


__________________
This thing all things devours:
Birds, beasts, trees, flowers;
Gnaws iron, bites steel;
Grinds hard stones to meal;
Slays king ruins town,
And beats high mountain down.

Old Post Aug 22nd, 2009 04:17 AM
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Hewhoknowsall
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The movies aren't supposed to be an in depth analysis about the tactical maneuvers neccessary to defend a fort from 10000 dudes through the use of badass elven archers that pwn everybody.

Back on topic, I will repeat the same thing again: the middle earth dudes that are NOT supernatural get pwned. The problems are Morgoth and the other uber godlike beings.


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Old Post Aug 23rd, 2009 04:27 PM
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Lord Lucien
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Morgromir
umm you messed it up a little...well alot theres more mumble jumble to it
...what?


__________________
I'm not going to lie: I despise children. There, I've said it.

Old Post Aug 23rd, 2009 08:28 PM
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