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Home » Movie Franchises » Lord of the Rings » Something everyone wonder, WHO WOULD WIN, WITCH KING OR GANDALF?

Something everyone wonder, WHO WOULD WIN, WITCH KING OR GANDALF?
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xJLxKing
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Lucien, I found where Gandalf said the comment about the Witch-King. He said to Denethor that he would be his greatest challenge.


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Old Post Aug 29th, 2009 04:02 AM
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Lord Lucien
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by xJLxKing
Well the thing is, Maiar and Valars can't die. They are spirits. However, they can weakened to the point where they are so weak that they can never take a physical form of any kind. Whether it be a dog, an old man, or an elf. They can also be sent to the void where Morgoth is.
Yeah, Gandalf didn't "die" in the sense that his spirit was cast in to the void. I was referring to the lack of ability of the Valar to resurrect his spirit from death and send him back, like was done to Glorfindel.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by xJLxKing
For Numenor, I believe he did intervene. He took away their prolonged lifespan and other stuff because they didn't believe in him. Morgoth(i think) corrupted them.
I've never heard that Eru took away their lifespan, source? And it wasn't Morgoth who corrupted them, it was Sauron. His 50 years he spent charming and "advising" Ar-Pharazon ended in moral corruption, human sacrifices, temples to Melkor, and of course the failed invasion.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by xJLxKing
Same goes for the Tower that Saruman lived in(can't spell name)
Orthanc. Made of near-impervious stone that was barely scratched by Ents hucking boulders at them. I've always wondered why the Arnorians/Gondorians decided to build a lone tower of that stuff and not their cities' walls. Again, dumb plot hole.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by xJLxKing
Lucien, I found where Gandalf said the comment about the Witch-King. He said to Denethor that he would be his greatest challenge.
Damn, I keep forgetting all the dialogue and sun-stories that happened at Minas Tirith. Oh and by the by, I'm not saying that Gandalf would ever have an easy time of facing the With-King, just that him beating the WK is feasible and doable, and not unreasonable.



What's with the talk of Numenorian cannons? I don't recall them having that at all.


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Old Post Aug 29th, 2009 04:27 AM
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xJLxKing
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quote:
Yeah, Gandalf didn't "die" in the sense that his spirit was cast in to the void. I was referring to the lack of ability of the Valar to resurrect his spirit from death and send him back, like was done to Glorfindel.

Maiar that die don't go to the void automatically. They would have to be thrown into the void by force. Morgoth was thrown there by the Valar. There are no more evil Maiar so even if Gandalf dies he will not be sent to the Void. Evil Maiar like the Balrog that fought Gandalf would be thrown into the void quickly. That's my guess.

quote:
I've never heard that Eru took away their lifespan, source? And it wasn't Morgoth who corrupted them, it was Sauron. His 50 years he spent charming and "advising" Ar-Pharazon ended in moral corruption, human sacrifices, temples to Melkor, and of course the failed invasion.

Actually, it was Eru. He gave them a gift for aiding somebody in war (forgot who). The gift was increased life spam, and other stuff.

And yes, you are right, it was Sauron who corrupted them into worshiping Morgoth.

quote:
Orthanc. Made of near-impervious stone that was barely scratched by Ents hucking boulders at them. I've always wondered why the Arnorians/Gondorians decided to build a lone tower of that stuff and not their cities' walls. Again, dumb plot hole.

It was for the leader of the Istari.

quote:
Damn, I keep forgetting all the dialogue and sun-stories that happened at Minas Tirith. Oh and by the by, I'm not saying that Gandalf would ever have an easy time of facing the With-King, just that him beating the WK is feasible and doable, and not unreasonable.

I am going to try to find the other quote where Gandalf says that he is unsure if he can beat the WK. And again, you have a point there.

quote:
What's with the talk of Numenorian cannons? I don't recall them having that at all.

Again, I am not sure. I do know they were ages ahead of anyone in Middle-Earth when it came to technology. I am going to find out exactly how much


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Old Post Aug 29th, 2009 04:59 AM
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Lord Lucien
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by xJLxKing
Maiar that die don't go to the void automatically. They would have to be thrown into the void by force. Morgoth was thrown there by the Valar. There are no more evil Maiar so even if Gandalf dies he will not be sent to the Void. Evil Maiar like the Balrog that fought Gandalf would be thrown into the void quickly. That's my guess.
Yeah, I know, I was saying that it was beyond the Valar's power to send Gandalf back to Middle-Earth in a new body, and that Eru had to do so personally.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by xJLxKing
Actually, it was Eru. He gave them a gift for aiding somebody in war (forgot who). The gift was increased life spam, and other stuff.
I know that Eru gave them their lifespan and island. What I've never heard before is that he took their lifespan away. He must not have, considering that even 3,000 years later, the diluted and depleted stock of the Dunedain was still living for about 200 years. Not to mention that would make Eru the biggest jackass ever, taking away the lifespan of the loyalists.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by xJLxKing
It was for the leader of the Istari.
Yeah, Gondor gave Saruman the keys to it circa 1,000 TA, but it was built during the late Second Age by the Numenorians after the loyalists founded the Kingdoms. It's weird why the didn't build more structures with that stone.


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Old Post Aug 29th, 2009 05:48 AM
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xJLxKing
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quote:
Yeah, I know, I was saying that it was beyond the Valar's power to send Gandalf back to Middle-Earth in a new body, and that Eru had to do so personally.

Manwe did sent him back, though only Eru can empower another Valar. Eru himself powered up Gandalf.

quote:
I know that Eru gave them their lifespan and island. What I've never heard before is that he took their lifespan away. He must not have, considering that even 3,000 years later, the diluted and depleted stock of the Dunedain was still living for about 200 years. Not to mention that would make Eru the biggest jackass ever, taking away the lifespan of the loyalists.

Yeah, but it didn't happen over night. IT was over time that they realized that there life spam was getting shorter and shorter.
quote:
Yeah, Gondor gave Saruman the keys to it circa 1,000 TA, but it was built during the late Second Age by the Numenorians after the loyalists founded the Kingdoms. It's weird why the didn't build more structures with that stone.

Too valuable? Though, Minas Tirith was also strong. The Catapult from mordor did almost no damage


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Old Post Aug 29th, 2009 04:57 PM
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Lord Lucien
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by xJLxKing
Manwe did sent him back, though only Eru can empower another Valar. Eru himself powered up Gandalf.
Bingo. Manwe commissioned, Eru delivered.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by xJLxKing
Yeah, but it didn't happen over night. IT was over time that they realized that there life spam was getting shorter and shorter.
Yeah over time. I'm thinking it was due to their gradual "fall from grace." Successive wars against Easterlings and Southrons, Orcs, etc. The division of Arnor and its war against Angmar. The plague. Not to mention the Numenorian descendants would have been breeding with the native Men, like the Eorl strain, for example... diluting their genetic stock. And on top of that their past was shadowed by Isildur's succumbing to temptation. In Tolkien's world, that would hurt.


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Old Post Aug 29th, 2009 11:10 PM
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madhusudhan
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The witch king obviously since "no man can kill him",gandalf though a wizard belongs to the blood of men in some way.

Old Post May 29th, 2010 03:00 AM
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sruthj
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A couple things to think about here:

Firstly, the Witch King is not entirely indestructible. He was after all, wounded by a hobbit, and destroyed by a mortal woman with a sword.

Secondly, one has to consider the Rings of Power and how they come into play here. It was revealed at the end of the trilogy that Gandalf was wearing the Red Ring....and certainly was at the time he faced the Witch King. The Red Ring was one of the Three which were far superior to the Nine (one of which W.K. was wearing), at least as long as Sauron didn't have the One.

Galadriel for instance, told Frodo she was able to hold off Sauron himself from invading Lothlorien, by using the White Ring.

When the Witch King first faced Gandalf after breaking into Minas Tirith, he threw Gandalf off his horse and broke his staff. So, he obviously had the momentary upper hand, either by surprise or chance.
HOWEVER, after he ran off when the cavalry arrived..... Gandalf clearly intended to go face him again, and would have, had he not been called off to save Faramir at the tombs. As he told Pippin, "If I go with you to help, others will die", etc.

That can only mean despite having his staff destroyed, Gandalf had other weapons at his disposal to face the Witch King and was reasonably sure he could still stop him. That would have to have been the Red Ring. Whatever he could have done with it to battle the Witch King, we will never know because of the way the story panned out.

Old Post Sep 9th, 2011 03:01 AM
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ares834
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by sruthj
Firstly, the Witch King is not entirely indestructible. He was after all, wounded by a hobbit, and destroyed by a mortal woman with a sword.


He has spells of invulnerability (or was it immortality?) cast upon him. These spells were undone by Merry's sword which he recived from the Barrows which were at one time used by Arnorians against Angmar. So unless Gandalf can contend with Sauron he will have a hard tiem actually killing the Witch King although he could destroy his form.

quote:
Secondly, one has to consider the Rings of Power and how they come into play here. It was revealed at the end of the trilogy that Gandalf was wearing the Red Ring....and certainly was at the time he faced the Witch King. The Red Ring was one of the Three which were far superior to the Nine (one of which W.K. was wearing), at least as long as Sauron didn't have the One.


None of the three used their rings for such overt purposes. They were trying to hide their rings from Sauron not flash them in his face.

quote:
When the Witch King first faced Gandalf after breaking into Minas Tirith, he threw Gandalf off his horse and broke his staff.


Didn't happen.


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Last edited by ares834 on Sep 9th, 2011 at 04:59 AM

Old Post Sep 9th, 2011 04:50 AM
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eezy45
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Also, Sauron was in control of the Nine. The Wraiths did not carry them themselves.


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Old Post Sep 9th, 2011 06:45 AM
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quanchi112
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Coul dsee it going either way but am leaning towards the Witch King.


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Old Post Sep 19th, 2011 04:29 AM
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Pwned
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???

I have a question.



How well versed are you in LOTR mythos? It seems like not very much.

Old Post Sep 20th, 2011 10:30 PM
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Jayson200
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It has been over a month since i last saw rotk but if i do remember correctly, the witch king cant be harmed by the souls of men, therefore before gandalf can harm the witch king, he must first go under the painful mideival version of transphobic transformation. good luck with that.

Old Post Oct 7th, 2012 05:29 AM
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KuRuPT Thanosi
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How dd the witchking break Gandalfs staff if Gandalf is much more powerful?

Old Post Nov 27th, 2012 10:09 PM
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elrond72
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Dont know for certain but u have to remember the witch king is, by e ssence mortal and Gandalf is a maia. I dont know if the istari arrive in ME with their staffs or make them later themselves, actually ive thought of another thread, but to answer your question Gandalfs staff may be used as a way to channel his power and not have any power in itself so it could be broken like any other weapon. If anyone knows where the istari staffs came from pls let me know.

Old Post Nov 28th, 2012 08:59 AM
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