I don't think his overpowering Renji to that extent is his determination to win. That would give him endurance and courage, not raw power and the ability to numb out pain from a wound like that. However looking at Hollow Ichigo's fights that's exactly like him. Even the way he's talking resembles Inner Hollow Ichigo far more than sounding like something Ichigo would say.
Of course this is just a theory without there being any true backing to it. But consider. It is stated Ichigo had his own shinigami powers even excluding what Rukia gave him. Yet he was not a Shinigami, he is a human.
That is not what happens when someone turns into a hollow. They dissapear and reform elsewhere. So why is it starting with the mask? This is not unlike what happens when his Hollow side takes over like against Byakuya. It starts with the mask.
This is my theory. Ichigo already had Shinigami powers, and he already had hollow powers. And the reason Ichigo doesn't reform somewhere else is because he already has a hollow.
Though not that any of this has relevence to the actual thread. I'm just really tired and babbling.
Just as i see it. It is simplier to assume Ichigo beating Kenpachi was PIS than Kenpachi beating #5 is PIS. It makes allot more sense. If Ichigo beating Kenny was PIS we don't have to assume there are massive power gaps inbetween the captains. We don't have to assume Kurotsuchi was being unusually unconfrontational when Kenpachi stopped him from interrogating Ikkaku. Kenpachi's beating the 2 captains makes actual sense. Ichigo not being much stronger relative to Byakuya even after gaining his mask fits better with Kenpachi.
Otherwise all of the above is iffy.
Kenpachi beating Tousen and Foxman would also have to be PIS, since he would be one of the 'weaker captains'
If Ichigo was making massive power leaps with his mask, why is it he went trhough an epic battle with 6, when Byakuya used bankai on 7 and annihilated him.
We do know, however, that Ichigo was stronger than Rukia and Rukia was at least as strong as a seated shinigami. At least. She fought and defeated an Espada. Sure, she almost died...but we know Byukuga kept Rukia from becoming seated to keep her from more dangerous missions. Ichigo was stronger than what we know as a seated officer...from the get go.
Then, Ichigo's character is built around the idea that he makes progress at a unprecedented pace in the Bleach-verse. Ichigo reaching captain level in a year, in and of itself, would be PIS IF it wasn't for Kubo writing that into his character.
That's just who Ichigo is.
Sure it is. But there has to be a gap bridged at some point. The Lieutenants fill that gap somehow and that somehow are those few rare lieutenants that reach bankai.
Kenpachi is just simply badass, though. His power is hand2hand. So much so that even trickery techniques like Tousan's couldn't completely fool Kenpachi in a simple sword fight.
I'll explain it another way:
Ichigo was about captain level when he fought Kenpachi. Kenpachi is in the top half of captains in fighting ability by feats and by the databook.
Ichigo won that fight, but just barely. Kenpachi took his patch off and was certainly not holding back as far as anyone can tell, period. If anyone claims he was holding back, it is baseless speculation.
Then, Ichigo gets a few days of training and not only drastically improves his strength, sword skill, tactics, and speed, he also learns (quite well, mind you) flash step and masters his bankai.
Ichigo becomes so fast that he can block 100,000,000 tiny blades being thrown at him as fast as a flash step can travel. That's retarded fast. Yet, Kuchiki is able to keep up in a sword fight with Ichigo? Rediculous and PIS itself.
So, we have this Ichigo who is better than most captains, become much stronger.
Hallow Ichigo having trouble against any Espada is PIS itself...except Ulq in his second form. The only captains I should have been able to keep up with the top Espada are Shunsui, Unohana, and Ukitake. When Ichigo reaches his bankai form, he should have been right up there with those captains. But noooo. Kubo had to PIS his progress and basically fly in the face of everything that had happened before then. Hell, Ichigo blocked the attack of a super zanpakutou (Sokyoku) that should have destroyed his sword. (When Rukia was almost killed.)
This is why Kenpachi should not have even stood a chance against Espada #5, who should have been stronger than #6. Also, the Espada should have all been stronger than the captains, except for the top 3 I mentioned earlier....and Yamamoto, which goes without saying.
Tousen and Sajin are in the bottom half of captains. In fact, Kenpachi is considered the weakest captain, and that makes sense. If Tousen wasn't such a pussy, he could have easily killed Kenpachi with no problem. Instead, he "pulled his punches." Tousen, Kenpachi, and Sajin are all in the bottom half.
Ichigo beating the, by Bleach standards, the weakest captain, when he was right there at about low level captain, shouldn't be PIS. However, the lowest level captain winning against the #5 Espada is PIS...when Ichigo, who should have been up there with Shunsui and a healthy Ukitake, barely won against the #6.
Now, I've heard other justifications as to why #5 was #5 and Grimmjow #6: Grimmjow was under-ranked and/or Nnoitra was ranked so high because his hierro was so strong that it would be very hard for anyone without massive reiryoku to be able to cut him...but people with really high reiryoku like Kenpachi and Espada #4 and up could. This can mean that a character that wasn't as fast or had as much reiryoku could conceivably make it to #5....only because he couldn't be challenged well enough by anyone beneath him.
Therefore, if Kenpachi can move as fast and has just as much if not more reiryoku, no matter how he stacks up against the other captains, he was the perfect math for #5. However, he STILL had to amp his attack power by doubling his hands up.
That's almost a stretch, though, as the justification is almost baseless.
So, anyway, yeah. Ichigo should be, without his Hallow mask, up there with Shunsui and Ukitake. And with it, up there near Yamamoto and Aizen, but not quite that strong. Yet, he struggled against Grimmjow.
To me, that was stupid. It's just another case of the DBZ syndrome: the heroes are weaker than the current badguy/s, no matter how strong...all previous logic be damned.
Indeed. However, I would like to say that Kenpachi won...because Kenpachi is my fav. It's just the way the "rules" were written for "winning." Hell, Byakuga said that Ichigo won their fight, despite Ichigo being unable to really move. It's really only because Byakuga's sword broke, too, from their final clash. Thats the "rules" I guess for Bleach fights.
You're correct. When they first met, he wasn't. However, at the end, before he lost his abilities, he was.
That's why I said this, "Because Ichigo was at least a top lietenant level before he lost all of his abilities. He was able to defeat and almost kill Renji, who was a top lieutenant at the time."
And, your point only further conveys that idea of Ichigo growing absurdly stronger by the 1/5 power level from Renji and Byakuya. I had forgotten all about that. So, I made a factual mistake (see, it happens to everyone), but that mistake actually helps make my point of the absurd amount of progess Ichigo made before his fight with Kenpachi.
No, you're right. They specifically mention that they release that limiter when they first fight Espada. This happened around chapter 195-200 when Toshiro fought those arrancar.
I agree on all points. You're most correct about Ichigo just concentrating on what he had learned with Urahara. That portion is brought out more in the Anime as he recalls his lesson about doing that getsuga tensho thing against him to win. In fact, Ichigo had enough spiritual power to cause Renji to feel heavy under his spiritual pressure when they first met and Ichigo's not even flexing it like Aizen did against Grimmjow:
But there are massive power gaps between captains.
And Kenpachi winning against two other captains who were stronger than him was not really PIS when you consider they took him one at a time and instead of using techniques Kenpachi would be very weak at, kidou, they took him head on. Kenpachi's fight with Sajin would have surely ended with his death to Sajin. And all Tousen had to do at the very beginning of the fight was walk up to Kenpachi and take off his head. Noooo...Tousen had to take a few superficial swings first so Kenpachi could learn to feel and move right at the last second to prevent his vitals from being hit.
BTW, both tousen and Sajin are bottom half fighters. Ichigo should be able to take them both out in his Bankai form, no problem.
Kenpachi is a superb sword fighter, no doubt. One of the best. He can take on most anyone in a sword fight with out flash step or sonido. He says that he can keep up because his legs are so strong that he doesn't need flash step...which in and of itself is just awesomely absurd. His reiryoku is second only to Yamamoto, imo. However, he lost to Ichigo when Ichigo could barely be considered captain level. (Ichigo was a low end captain level in his fight with Kenpachi, imo.)
Ichigo winning was not PIS. Especially when you consider that Kenpachi is supposed to be the weakest captain.
He also becomes determined to win against Kenpachi. It's reflected in his eyes, the will to cut anything. He numbs out wounds in that fight (or they stop bleeding completely, I dunno, the wounds are still there though). He acts like a berserker at times, without the influence of the mask. Even surviving debilitating wounds is in his ability (Aizen cuts Ichigo badly, he survives Ceros, etc).
HI taking control has always been signified by the formation of the mask.
Another instance occurs in his final fight with Grimmjow. They fight on par for most of it, and at the end, Girmmjow overpowers Ichigo & is about to kill an Ichigo who had lost most of his mask. After hearing Orihime, he was able to stop his strike without looking (talk about cool) and injure Grimmjow with a clean slash. He required Getsuga Tenshou's to cut Grimmjow before that. His determination is tied to how much power he can use.
Kisuke says that Ichigo's order is haphazard because he is resisting his conversion into a hollow.
If he had had hollow powers during his first fight with Renji and Byakuya, why didn't the mask form?
I can understand Ichigo having latent shinigami powers that were brought out by Rukia, but not hollow powers. Not unless Grand Fisher performed some sort of weird experiment on him.
No goodnight for me ?
__________________
"To all visitors from Transylvania looking for the head of Voivode Dracula: Yes, we have it. Yes, he's dead. No, you cannot see it. No, he will not return and invade you again. It has been over thirty years, please stop pestering us."
Last edited by Demonic Phoenix on Sep 27th, 2009 at 05:10 PM
Just to clarify this is just speculation from my part. It's an idea that hit be ages ago, but writing on here it's fun to play with the idea =)
But at no point during this fight do his eyes turn blue. His eyes also turn by when he destroys the execution stand, which is said to be able to stop a million zanpactou, or something like that.
I understand what you mean, but seriously, look at it;
He overpowers him to the point he bats Renji away like a fly with one hand. And it's a back hand slash, the weakest kind. For me it's the only thing that makes sense, he draws out his Hollow strength during that fight. It doesn't get a face until his training with Urahara forces it out. That's what i think. Since i think most everyone would try to resist hollowification ;p
I agree that when Ichigo gains resolve, his power fluctuates highly. But i don't think this is that. He's acting far too much like Shirosaki.
I think the mask didn't form because the hollow power didn't have a conciousness. That formed when Urahara messed with Ichigo i think.
I can't think of a reason that Ichigo would have latent Shinigami powers and excludes the possibility he could have hollow powers. Just me ;p
Well you can have a Good Afternoon Demonic Phoenix. =)
edit: Actually can i just say, i think there's a difference between being able to resist the pain of his wounds and not feeling pain from them anymore. That i feel is an important and cruicial difference between hollowization and a strong resolve
Last edited by EvilAngel on Sep 27th, 2009 at 05:31 PM
Perhaps. Considering Renji had for the most part acquired his bankai, or was close to, he was already near the level of a captain. Though the power gap between Captains and Lieutenants is so immense, I don't think even a Lieutenant who is in Soul Society would be as powerful as a captain with the limiter (in terms of base abilities, the bankai would still take effect for the captain so that would be an edge obviously). So yeah, Ichigo was definitely Lieutenant level, though I'm not sure if we were a high level lieutenant.
Though yes, Ichigo has always been one to make ridiculous leaps in power, so much so that it almost seems like PIS.
Indeed. Renji probably wouldn't have felt like that had the limiter not been active. Ichigo has always had an incredibly high amount of reiatsu.
That determination of his is incredible to say the least.
Also, Sajin might be low-level, but I don't think Tousen is. Tousen is at least mid-level imo. His bankai is quite powerful all things considered. He's also pretty good with flash steps and he's able to fight properly. His senses are well honed as above all, he's frickin blind.
__________________
"To all visitors from Transylvania looking for the head of Voivode Dracula: Yes, we have it. Yes, he's dead. No, you cannot see it. No, he will not return and invade you again. It has been over thirty years, please stop pestering us."
That 'blue' effect is only a part of the anime which signals his will to win kicking in. We can't really tell if his eyes turn blue in the manga >__>. I look at his expression, he appears quite merciless/blank during those times.
imo he surprises Renji with his power level, and then Renji fails to react properly when Ichigo capitalizes. He is then shocked that Ichigo could do something like that. Had Renji been able to react accordingly, he'd have avoided most of the damage he took.
The only way Ichigo could turn into a hollow is if he loses his chain which is what happens when Urahara trains him. Considering he was alive and well and had his chain intact, there was no hollow inside him.
Your theory is alright, and I'd accept it if Kubo reveals that Grand Fisher did something to Ichigo when GF killed Ichigo's mother. That's the only way I see Ichigo having hollow powers from the start.
He was never able to fully access Shinigami powers until Rukia helped him. Yeah, that might be it. His reiatsu at first was like a blank slate, a form that could either turn towards hollow or shinigami. He just needed some help for it to go either way. Rukia helped him with the first, then Urahara helped Ichigo's reiatsu follow both ways. So part of your theory might be correct, but not the part that states Ichigo had hollow powers during his first fight with Renji.
Ichigo's father was a very powerful captain level shinigami at one point. Even if Isshin lost the bulk of his powers when he fathered Ichigo, it still could play a part on why Ichigo has such a high amount of Spiritual power.
It was latent at first, Rukia then helped him release it by lending some of her own, then he lost his access to Rukia's spiritual powers and by extension, access to his own, and finally, he trained with Kisuke to release his own spiritual powers. That's how I see it.
On a side note, I really wish Kubo would show Isshin Kurosaki (damn bastard acts like a fool around Ichigo when he is in fact quite cool) and Ryuken Ishida (imo looks better than Uryuu, srsly) in a fight where they show just how powerful they really are. Those two are implied to be mad strong.
That's a pity wish ...thanks .
__________________
"To all visitors from Transylvania looking for the head of Voivode Dracula: Yes, we have it. Yes, he's dead. No, you cannot see it. No, he will not return and invade you again. It has been over thirty years, please stop pestering us."
Yeah you're probably right. I've said pretty much everything i had thought about so sorry to say but i don't have anything really to add or respond with.
Still it's fun to go back and reread the roots of bleach. Our boy Ichigo has come a long way eh? =)
Yeah, i must admit, i'd very much liek to see more of Isshin and Ishida's father. But we probably won't for a good amount of time =(
He sure has, I'm so proud of him .
Kubo's way of drawing Ichigo also changed, he looks different in the earlier chapters.
Which sucks to be frank.
I'd also like it if Uryuu found a way to access the Final Form without losing his powers.
__________________
"To all visitors from Transylvania looking for the head of Voivode Dracula: Yes, we have it. Yes, he's dead. No, you cannot see it. No, he will not return and invade you again. It has been over thirty years, please stop pestering us."
No no, you're right. If Renji was at 1/5 (we know he was from what Toshiro said), then Ichigo having what...double...triple Renji's reiatsu, then Renji should feel shocked and become slightly paralyzed, like he did there. Then, when they met together and fought in soul society, both fully powered, Renji would have 5 times as much reiryoku. That's a huge jump. So, actually it works out nicely and there was no PIS there at that point.
However, that DOES further illustrate my point that Ichigo made a MASSIVE leap in power under his training with Urahara. At the very least, he grew 5 times stronger. Before, he was stronger than a 1/5 powered lieutenant that was almost captain level, but not quite. Then, he was slightly stronger than a lieuteneant that was almost captain level (same person, just no 1/5 limiter). He grew from their fight and understood better the "focus" and "determination" required, but he did not yet know his swords name, nor had he become one with his sword, you.
When he fought Kenpachi, he wasn't very much stronger at that point. So, yes, he should have lost and he WAS losing, VERY badly. However, finally learned his sword's name, learned more about his intense focus and determination, even against stacked odds, and he ended up winning. Kenpachi is the lowerst overall captain, but has really high combat ability. So, in order to overcome someone like that, Ichigo had to just raise his reiryoku and reiatsu high enough to match Kenpachi, which is not PIS for Ichigo as he was the same type of fighter as Kenpachi. Ichigo won, despite being the less experienced fighter, because he gat the little extra boost from being one with his zanpakutou AND because he had more focus and a will to win. He was there to save Rukia. So, his winning that fight wasn't even remotely PIS as Ichigo has tons of reasons why he should have won AND lose that fight.
To sum up: he was losing because he was scared and wasn't focusing hard enough. He realized that he should stop being a mangina and increase his focus. He also had an epiphany, as many protagonists have in japanese manga and anima, and grew stronger and increased his focus by becoming one with his sword. Even a Kenpachi with double the reiryoku could not overcome Ichigo's renewed determination and new bond with his Zanpakutou, because of Ichigo's will to save his friend, Rukia.
For me, the Kenpachi fight was a major learning step for Ichigo.
The second step was his training with Hot cat naked chick lady: Yoruichi. He jumped from low level captain to average captain just a day or so into traning. By the 3 day, he was high level captain, able to keep up with Byakuya and even "beat" him.
I agree. With 5 times as much reiryoku, Renji wouldn't have frozen up like that.
Sajin is lower half. Tousen is lowe level. His Bankai is very similar to Aizen's Shikai...just for a specific area. However, he was definitely not a better swordsman than Kenpachi, as we clearly saw. Therefore, logic dictates that Tousen would not be better than Ichigo. That SHOULD be true, but then we have the PIS moment where Tousen cuts off Grimmjow's arm. LAME! That was just a plot device to get Inoue to heal his arm back. DOUBLE LAME!
Ichigo's "hallow" abilities are not present until after he gets his powers back. The process that Urahara used is what caused Ichigo to have an inner hallow.
The lack of not feeling his wounds is from his resolve. Since his hallow powers did not exist at this moment, it can only be attributed to his resolve. His hallow powers didn't exist until Urahara brought his shinigami power back with that process. It was because Ichigo went so far into the halllowfication process that he had that latent hallow personality inside of him. It left a "residual" effect on Ichigo.
It does not take a friggin rocket scientist to figure out that the Captains received a power boost to fight the Espada.
Also, by the time Kenpachi had released his power, he sustained numerous grievous injuries. Ichigo was practically fresh.
Also, that amp he received in that fight, WAS temporary, his Reitsu was so bonded with Zangetsu's his previous wounds stopped bleeding from the amp, anyone care to show me him doing this again?
Kenny has obviously gotten stronger, since he outright SAYS it, and we SEE it, at first he had serious trouble cutting Nnoitra, then he was able to adapt to his incredible Hierro and sliced through it. Yeah, dur.
This is also incorrect. Ichigo got a mortal wound closed up by Zangetsu. Ichigo had gotten sliced up, himself.
You mean that Zangetsu had closed up the wound? Yes, that’s exactly what you meant.
Pics of him saying he had gotten stronger because of training after his fight with Ichigo, or ANY rerferential time frame post Ichigo fight. K. Thanks.
Byakuya was able to fight and defeat the 7th Espada, who was only a little weaker than Grimmjow, you know, the same guy who utterly raped Bankai Ichigo their first fight?
Kenpachi was able to take on and defeat the Fifth Espada...Doing so easily in fact, once he got serious.
Hitsugaya somehow can now hold his own and was going to defeat the Third Espada. Before that, he had trouble with Gin and some other chump Arrancar for Christ's sake.
Mayuri was able to pretty easily dispose of Szazel, although this was due largely to prep.
Shit, Kenpachi showed the ability to take on two Captains using their Shikai almost directly after his fight with Ichigo, and then took out Tousen without much trouble, once again, sealed.
Do you really think Ichigo with his Shikai is that strong?
Also, I am not saying they all "trained" or whatever bullshit way you interpreted my statement, I am saying Kubo brought them up to that level for plot purposes.
2. Once. And said wound was no longer detrimental to him, and was absolutely trivial compared to Kenny's injuries.
3. Which does not refute my point in the least, semantic arguments tend to fail at that. Glad you agree though.
Ichigo NOT utterly destroying Grimmjow should be evidence of PIS. We have an Ichigo that is in the upper third tier captain level when he fights Byakuya and BEATS Byakuya.
By the time Ichigo fights Grimmjow, he gets a massive amp in power: Vizard form.
So, either Grimmjow is MUCH stronger than Byakuya, or Ichigo struggling against Grimmjow is PIS. Since the other top level captains fought MUCH stronger Espada than Grimmjow, we know that Grimmjow's fight was PIS. If you want to argue that Grimmjow was incorrectly rated as #6, I'll agree with that.
So, let's recap: Ichigo beat Kenapchi. Ichigo became MUCH MUCH better in every category when he fought Byakuya. On top of that, he got his Bankai. On top of THAT, Ichigo also unlocked his Vizard form which makes him so strong that characters that handed his ass to him, now get THEIR ass handed back to them.
K.
Follow me?
Now.
We have Kenpachi fight the #5 Espada and win when a Vizard Ichigo barely won against Grimmjow.
Is it clicking for you yet? Do you have the insatiable urge to scream "PIS!" now? If not, you're a fanboy of Kenpachi and our discussion is futile.
This only further proves my point of PIS, sir. However, I don't think it was easy. He had to pull out a "technique" that he had almost forgotten about to win.
DUH! Now you're getting it.
Agreed. However, by Szazel's own admission, he was weak and only got his spot because of his brains.
Yeah, we've covered this already. Kenpachi is a great swordfighter. One of the best in all of the series.
Tousen not winning was simply due to a very pure form of PIS. All Tousen had to do was cut his head off at the very beginning of his Bankai technique. Instead, he slashed his back and then slashed him several more times just for what? To torture Kenpachi?
And, Sajin was about to utterly destroy Kenpachi when they both called off the fight. By Sajin's own words, he wasn't nice like Tousen and wasn't going to hold back.
And, no, it WAS much trouble against Tousen. He was close to getting killed, by his own admission. Remove Tousen's PIS moment and Kenpachi would be dead.
Not only is he "that strong", he got a lot better by the time Kenpachi fought Espada #5.
K. I'll buy that. Because then you just admitted that it was PIS which was my argument the whole damn time.
Wrong.
One deep cut to his sword arm, one slice to the face, one slice to his chest, and a mortal wound right into his chest.
Reread it again. I just did and counted them up.
Then that's your problem for failing to "see what I did there."
Your point is useless in actually doing anything to refute that Ichigo has gotten stronger since that fight. You know what that's called? Strawman.
No, you mean exactly what it says, he got warmed up. In other words, he stopped dicking around and got serious.
No where does it say he trained and got stronger. You took that portion out of context. He certainly "got warmed up" against ichigo, as well.
Are you trying to prove my point? You do know my point is that his win was PIS, right?
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Last edited by dadudemon on Sep 28th, 2009 at 02:03 AM
I wish Tite Kubo would explain how Kenpachi is not the weakest Captain. Despite barley bein' able to beat regular Ichigo, then goes on to some how kill an Espada while still not knowing the name of his sword or use Bankai. There are some serious holes beginning to form.
__________________ "Step back loser! Make way for the winner!" -Anakaris-
And, the official databook puts Kenpachi as the overall weakest captain.
BTW, guys, it says that Byakuya has as high or higher spirit power than Kenpachi. So, this further makes my point that Ichigo got much stronger since fighting Kenpachi.
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Last edited by dadudemon on Sep 29th, 2009 at 08:04 PM
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Sep 27th, 2009 06:43 AM
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...thanks 
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