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Star Wars vs Star Trek, Lord of the Rings and Battlestar Galactica
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CadoAngelus
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Borbarad Especially since you're operating under the false premise, that the SW universe doesn't have access to time-travel. The Darkstaff ("Echoes of the Jedi") can be used to summon a force storm to go to any desired time period. The Orb of Passage ("The Secret of Tet-Ami") was implied to control the flow of time itself and the Eternity Crystal ("Dark Knight's Devilry") in possession of the Jerni can be used to rewind time to a certain negative incident and correct the changes. This give the SW universe the means to destroy the Krenim before they construct the ship or simply undo the changes they made using it, rendering their task futile.


Based upon paradoxes and time travel surely anything to do with time travel is a fallacy in itself.

Traveling backwards in time would result in changes in the present so who knows what would result in any species' technology within the SW universe with the Staff, the Orb and the Crystal.

Time travel is automatically riddled with plot holes and fallacies. Using an off topic franchise to explain: Back to the Future. Part 1: Marty goes back to 1955 to get his parents together. Part 2: Marty goes back to 1955 because Biff has gone back to change the present (1985) and the future (2010). Already there's two Marty's creating a paradox just by existing in the same plane of time. It technically doesn't work - but for the sake of entertainment it does.

Same plays out for the Krenim Time-Ship. If they were destroyed, they were never there to be destroyed. So they were never destroyed. Voyager flew into the time-drive, okay. So that would have erased Voyager from existence? So why the succeeding seasons? Hmmm..


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Last edited by CadoAngelus on Sep 26th, 2010 at 02:40 PM

Old Post Sep 26th, 2010 02:37 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by CadoAngelus
Based upon paradoxes and time travel surely anything to do with time travel is a fallacy in itself.


I hope you notice that it wasn't me who brought this up in a desperate attempt to win this debate, after anything else failed...

quote:

Traveling backwards in time would result in changes in the present so who knows what would result in any species' technology within the SW universe with the Staff, the Orb and the Crystal.


This was part of my argument but it also assumes that the ST side will use this abilities and the SW side would not. The three SW artifacts did originate from three different cultures, which means erasing them would require three operations. Getting rid of the Krenim time ship would just require one. And the SW technology is far older than the ST tech, given that SW takes place "a long time ago" and even then the Darkstaff is at least 5,000 years old.

Note: I really don't want any time-travel arguments here, because they just generate a single mess as omnipotent beings would do. But since jaden has chosen to ignore the complications in order to go "ST wins because of the Krenim", I simply had to introduce the corresponding SW technology here.

quote:

Same plays out for the Krenim Time-Ship. If they were destroyed, they were never there to be destroyed. So they were never destroyed. Voyager flew into the time-drive, okay. So that would have erased Voyager from existence? So why the succeeding seasons? Hmmm..


I didn't want to rule out the Krenim time ship because of canon issues. It mainly doesn't do the debate any good to include time travel, mainly because nobody in the two universes would have the means to know where (or rather "when") to travel to, given the entirely different timeframes and Galaxies. It would just serve to beat opposition to death with the "Our side goes back in time and destroys everything" argument.

That aside, the results of messing up the continuity of a Galaxy using time travel can never be predicted, which is the entire point behind an episode like "Year of Hell".


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Old Post Sep 27th, 2010 11:23 PM
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FYI, watts is already a measurement of joules per second. Therefore, to say X amount of gigawatts per second is redundant, and to say that X gigawatts is not per second but "total" is like saying that 5 feet isn't 5 feet but 5 inches.

Star Wars wins mainly because warp drive is so slow that by the time Star Trek actually got anywhere near Star Wars they would have starved to death.

Old Post Sep 28th, 2010 03:14 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Borbarad
I hope you notice that it wasn't me who brought this up in a desperate attempt to win this debate, after anything else failed...
I think it was Rob.


[/B][/QUOTE]


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Old Post Sep 28th, 2010 05:31 PM
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CadoAngelus
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Borbarad
I hope you notice that it wasn't me who brought this up in a desperate attempt to win this debate, after anything else failed...


Perfectly aware. I'm here for the debate, not the to-and-fro of people constantly trying to get at each other. Plus, time travel in sci-fi interests me a lot.


quote:
This was part of my argument but it also assumes that the ST side will use this abilities and the SW side would not. The three SW artifacts did originate from three different cultures, which means erasing them would require three operations. Getting rid of the Krenim time ship would just require one. And the SW technology is far older than the ST tech, given that SW takes place "a long time ago" and even then the Darkstaff is at least 5,000 years old.

Note: I really don't want any time-travel arguments here, because they just generate a single mess as omnipotent beings would do. But since jaden has chosen to ignore the complications in order to go "ST wins because of the Krenim", I simply had to introduce the corresponding SW technology here.

Agreed. The whole point of a debate is to provide your corresponding evidence. I've got no problems with that. I've got a bit frustrated reading through the "'you're wrong' 'no you're wrong'" shit though. Regardless of the factual evidence provided...lol.


quote:
I didn't want to rule out the Krenim time ship because of canon issues. It mainly doesn't do the debate any good to include time travel, mainly because nobody in the two universes would have the means to know where (or rather "when") to travel to, given the entirely different timeframes and Galaxies. It would just serve to beat opposition to death with the "Our side goes back in time and destroys everything" argument.

That aside, the results of messing up the continuity of a Galaxy using time travel can never be predicted, which is the entire point behind an episode like "Year of Hell".

Exactly, paradoxes pose so many threats within a continues plot that usually you find within sci-fi shows or films that paradoxes are explained away with a very final "It didn't actually happen" or "That's a different universe".


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Old Post Sep 28th, 2010 05:33 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by StarWarsFan8888
FYI, watts is already a measurement of joules per second. Therefore, to say X amount of gigawatts per second is redundant, and to say that X gigawatts is not per second but "total" is like saying that 5 feet isn't 5 feet but 5 inches.


You're wrong (really, you're partially right, but missed the point) and Jaden already explained why. It's middle school physical science, man. Enough with that line of reasoning.


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Old Post Sep 28th, 2010 05:43 PM
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Borborad has a good point about time travel.


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Old Post Sep 28th, 2010 06:40 PM
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Wait, if the Krenim time ship erases a planet from ever having existed then it never would have been there for them to shoot it, therefore they couldn't have shot it, so it still exists so they can fire on it but the- Oh dear, I've gone cross eyed.


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Old Post Sep 28th, 2010 06:45 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Nephthys
Wait, if the Krenim time ship erases a planet from ever having existed then it never would have been there for them to shoot it, therefore they couldn't have shot it, so it still exists so they can fire on it but the- Oh dear, I've gone cross eyed.
I suggest you don't worry about those things and just enjoy yourself.

That goes for you all, too.


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Old Post Sep 29th, 2010 02:24 AM
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jaden101
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quote:
I didn't want to rule out the Krenim time ship because of canon issues. It mainly doesn't do the debate any good to include time travel, mainly because nobody in the two universes would have the means to know where (or rather "when") to travel to, given the entirely different timeframes and Galaxies. It would just serve to beat opposition to death with the "Our side goes back in time and destroys everything" argument. That aside, the results of messing up the continuity of a Galaxy using time travel can never be predicted, which is the entire point behind an episode like "Year of Hell".


I can understand your point (Partly the reason I've never even brought up the issue with the Borg's time travel ability and what they did to earth in First Contact) with this but I wouldn't consider the Krenim time ship as time travel. It simply pushes it's targets out of the space time continuum without traveling through time itself.


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Old Post Sep 30th, 2010 09:55 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by jaden101
I can understand your point (Partly the reason I've never even brought up the issue with the Borg's time travel ability and what they did to earth in First Contact) with this but I wouldn't consider the Krenim time ship as time travel. It simply pushes it's targets out of the space time continuum without traveling through time itself.


Yes.
But you seem to assume that it will work like this (just as example):

Anakin Skywalker is born on Tatooine. The Krenim push Tatooine out of the space-time continuum and Anakin is never born.

As I see it, it works like this:

Tatooine is pushed out of the space time continuum, and hence the first human that would have settled down on Tatooine (which was a colony planet) would have chosen another planet for colonization (as Tatooine never existed). So the events that happened on Tatooine could have occured on that other location or even on various places across the Galaxy and suddenly Anakin is born on Alderaan (just for example).

I know, you want to file that under "speculation" and not allow it for this debate, because it's outside the canon (this is what you've tried it before). The point is that it simply wouldn't work the way you want it to work. The first change the Krenim would make to the established space time continuum would cause changes that are unpredictable and that would require extensive research on a Galactic scale, before they would be able to do the next change. And so on and so forth.

So the only save way for the Krenim ship to be used, would mean that the crew would have to remove every single planet in the SW universe from existance, then cross to the Vong Galaxy and remove every planet there from existance. Can that be done by an apparently immortal crew? Probably. Without having to refuel the ship once? Maybe not. Without a single being even attempting to stop them? Laughable.

And the latter is the point that you keep ignoring: Employing the usual no-limit-fallacy we've seen before, you keep assuming that there is nothing to stop the Krenim ship. Yet, you ignore the following points:

1) Every single member planet of the Empire is equiped with planetary shielding. Is the Krenim weapon able to penetrate them? And even if it is: If the Voyager can modify shields against temporal weaponary in the matter of two months, how long would a Galaxy full of genious level scientists need to do the job?

2) Every ship in the SW universe that is capable of faster than light travel is equiped with stasis field, which protects the crew from the relativistic consequences of faster than light travel. Those fields do negate any temporal flux from outside the shield to the inside. That means that the SW universe does already have the technology to render the Krenim weapon useless (and just need to deploy them on a larger scale) and the usual temporal incursions may not effect the already present SW ships. Thus even removing all planets in the SW universe might have no effect on the crew on the starships protected by those shield (similar to Voyagers temporal shielding). This might also be able to stop the Krenim ship if projected around it.

3) There are other possible counter-meassures. Luke Skywalker has been seen to remove an entire planet out of sight ("Tyrant's Test") for an apparently infinite amount of time, without any further need to focus on that task. He could hide away all crucial planets (or even most planets), making it impossible for the Krenim ship to attack them. The Darkstaff artifact has been utilized to shift an entire star-system out of the space-time-continuum for several millenia (hiding it away).


Conclusion
Star Wars has the technology to counter temporal based weaponary that might be sufficient to prevent the Krenim from succeeding with their task to destroy all planets. If you want to contest that, they have the ability to hide the planets away using the force, rendering them unattackable. And even if you want to argue that, the Star Wars shields are protected against any form of temporal incursion, meaning that whiping the planets out would have no effect on the ships at all. The best thing you can get here is a draw.

But even if you want to ignore all of this: The Krenim ship would still need millenia to perform his task, while being perfectly noticeable by anybody in the SW universe. So, apparently, you are assuming that they wouldn't try to find any counter-measure or not be sucessful with that task in that pretty damn large amount of time. This while they do - at the very least - possess some artifacts, force abilities and even technology to control time to a certain extend, unlike the Voyager Crew, who managed to to find some counter-measure in the matter of two months. Does that really make sense to you?


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Old Post Oct 3rd, 2010 08:56 PM
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jaden101
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quote:
Anakin Skywalker is born on Tatooine. The Krenim push Tatooine out of the space-time continuum and Anakin is never born. As I see it, it works like this: Tatooine is pushed out of the space time continuum, and hence the first human that would have settled down on Tatooine (which was a colony planet) would have chosen another planet for colonization (as Tatooine never existed). So the events that happened on Tatooine could have occured on that other location or even on various places across the Galaxy and suddenly Anakin is born on Alderaan (just for example).


That's not how the weapon works though. It doesn't push the entire planet out of the space/time continuum. The planet would still exist. It's just that everyone and everything that ever originated on that planet is pushed out of the space/time continuum.

quote:
The point is that it simply wouldn't work the way you want it to work.


It obviously does work exactly the way I said it did because that's how it works in the episode.

quote:
So the only save way for the Krenim ship to be used, would mean that the crew would have to remove every single planet in the SW universe from existance, then cross to the Vong Galaxy and remove every planet there from existance. Can that be done by an apparently immortal crew? Probably. Without having to refuel the ship once? Maybe not. Without a single being even attempting to stop them? Laughable.


No...they wouldn't. For reasons i've already given. I'd repeat myself but i'm posting from a mobile as my laptop is knackered. Takes too long.

quote:
1) Every single member planet of the Empire is equiped with planetary shielding. Is the Krenim weapon able to penetrate them? And even if it is: If the Voyager can modify shields against temporal weaponary in the matter of two months, how long would a Galaxy full of genious level scientists need to do the job?


Once again we're not debating theoretical made up technology. You can't give SW the ability to defend against something by simply making up technology that they might invent if they were to encounter it.


quote:
2) Every ship in the SW universe that is capable of faster than light travel is equiped with stasis field, which protects the crew from the relativistic consequences of faster than light travel. Those fields do negate any temporal flux from outside the shield to the inside. That means that the SW universe does already have the technology to render the Krenim weapon useless (and just need to deploy them on a larger scale) and the usual temporal incursions may not effect the already present SW ships. Thus even removing all planets in the SW universe might have no effect on the crew on the starships protected by those shield (similar to Voyagers temporal shielding). This might also be able to stop the Krenim ship if projected around it.


So a stasis field is in essence the same as a warp field in that it keeps the crew of the FTL ship in the same time frame as the planets they are travelling to and from. Does this stasis field exist when ships are not at FTL travel?

You're also ignoring the fact that if the Krenim were to deploy the weapon on the world where Rothana Heavy Engineering was founded then the ISD's would never have existed in the 1st place.


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Old Post Oct 3rd, 2010 09:51 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by jaden101
That's not how the weapon works though. It doesn't push the entire planet out of the space/time continuum. The planet would still exist. It's just that everyone and everything that ever originated on that planet is pushed out of the space/time continuum.

It obviously does work exactly the way I said it did because that's how it works in the episode.


Erm. No.
The history of the target is erased from it's starting point on. So, yes, to a certain degree everybody originating there would be removed from the continuum. BUT since the history is erased, some other events would occur that didn't happen in the original time-line. This might include the original settlers skipping Tatooine and creating a colony on another planet. With their childen then being born on that other planet and the people originally settling down on Tatooine also making that "new" colony their home.

When the Krenim ship pushes itself out of the space-time-continuum, we later see Annorax united with his wife again, because he did never built and therefor not enter the time-ship. In the same fashion, Tatooine wouldn't be colonized. Yet the people that were born there could be born on another planet.

quote:

No...they wouldn't. For reasons i've already given. I'd repeat myself but i'm posting from a mobile as my laptop is knackered. Takes too long.


I'm slowly getting fed up with your "I already have..." statments, given that in 9 out of 10 cases you've done nothing. No. You didn't explain anything and, quite honestly, I don't even want to read your explanations, because I already pointed out the only logical way to use the ship. Anything else would fail. Why? Because they can't even find the homeworlds of certain species, given that there is no information about them in the known Galaxy, which prevents the "regular use" of the ship.

quote:

Once again we're not debating theoretical made up technology. You can't give SW the ability to defend against something by simply making up technology that they might invent if they were to encounter it.


They do have the technology already, which I pointed out. We're debating whether it's useful or not. That aside: I can make the assertion that they would be able to counter it, when it takes millenia for the Krenim to archive their task. Probability isn't ruled out of the debate because it doesn't favor your argument.

quote:

So a stasis field is in essence the same as a warp field in that it keeps the crew of the FTL ship in the same time frame as the planets they are travelling to and from. Does this stasis field exist when ships are not at FTL travel?


Actually: No.
A stasis fields keeps any time effect outside. Those shields have been used to keep prisoners over millenia for example, who were forced to stay within the fields, able to think but unable to move. Other individuals have used those fields to prolong their lives (as they prevent aging) and, as I've already pointed out, the Darkstaff has been used to shift an entire star-system out of space-time.

quote:

You're also ignoring the fact that if the Krenim were to deploy the weapon on the world where Rothana Heavy Engineering was founded then the ISD's would never have existed in the 1st place.


Wrong.
If the stasis fields work as I suggested, the resulting temporal incursion wouldn't even affect the Star Destroyers, just as it didn't affect the Voyager when Annorax temporarily catapulted the Krenim Empire into a pre-Warp age. Technically, this would have erased chroniton torpedos from history and thus, the damage that things caused to the Voyager would also have disappeared. The latter didn't happen because the Voyager wasn't affected by the changes Annorax had caused.

That aside: It's not guaranteed that destroying Rotana Heavy Engineering would result in the destruction of the Star Destroyers. You would need to find the guy that came up with the basic design more than 4,000 years in the past, then the designer that turned it into the Republic's / Empire's war machines and kill them all. But this would likely result in different warships of equal firepower being designed, build and used by the Empire.

I know why I mentioned "unpredictable results" before. The only predictable result the Krenim warship generated is that, if you use the weapon on the homeworld of a species, the species is exterminated from the continuum. Anything else appears to be a galactic gamble without any predictable results.


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Old Post Oct 4th, 2010 11:47 PM
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jaden101
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quote:
Erm. No. The history of the target is erased from it's starting point on. So, yes, to a certain degree everybody originating there would be removed from the continuum. BUT since the history is erased, some other events would occur that didn't happen in the original time-line. This might include the original settlers skipping Tatooine and creating a colony on another planet. With their childen then being born on that other planet and the people originally settling down on Tatooine also making that "new" colony their home.


Shoulda woulda coulda then yeah?


quote:
I'm slowly getting fed up with your "I already have..." statments, given that in 9 out of 10 cases you've done nothing. No. You didn't explain anything and, quite honestly, I don't even want to read your explanations, because I already pointed out the only logical way to use the ship. Anything else would fail. Why? Because they can't even find the homeworlds of certain species, given that there is no information about them in the known Galaxy, which prevents the "regular use" of the ship.


Nah...See...What you did is type the way you'd like the ship to work in order to give the win to SW...What I did was show the way the ship actually worked in the episode...One of those 2 versions is what would happen and the other is completely made up bullshit...I'll let you figure out which is which.


quote:
They do have the technology already, which I pointed out. We're debating whether it's useful or not. That aside: I can make the assertion that they would be able to counter it, when it takes millenia for the Krenim to archive their task. Probability isn't ruled out of the debate because it doesn't favor your argument.


Might take the time ship milennia to travel between planets...Does it take that long for the causality paradox their weapon creates to travel through massive areas of space?...No.



quote:
That aside: It's not guaranteed that destroying Rotana Heavy Engineering would result in the destruction of the Star Destroyers. You would need to find the guy that came up with the basic design more than 4,000 years in the past, then the designer that turned it into the Republic's / Empire's war machines and kill them all. But this would likely result in different warships of equal firepower being designed, build and used by the Empire.


That'll be you making up hypothetical ships again then?



quote:
I know why I mentioned "unpredictable results" before. The only predictable result the Krenim warship generated is that, if you use the weapon on the homeworld of a species, the species is exterminated from the continuum. Anything else appears to be a galactic gamble without any predictable results.


The one thing that is predictable is that using on the SW worlds and species would have no effect on the ST worlds or species...Obviously because they have never interacted (Although there is a planet in ST called Alderaan which I thought was a cool homage to SW)


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Old Post Oct 5th, 2010 02:28 AM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by jaden101
Shoulda woulda coulda then yeah?


Brilliant point. You totally trashed my argument.

quote:

Nah...See...What you did is type the way you'd like the ship to work in order to give the win to SW...What I did was show the way the ship actually worked in the episode...One of those 2 versions is what would happen and the other is completely made up bullshit...I'll let you figure out which is which.


Ipsedixitism doesn't win debates. We see Annorax at home with his beloved wife, after the time ship was pushed from the space-time-continuum. Conclusion: It doesn't remove anything linked to the target from history but exterminates the history of the target totally, which leads to events unfolding differently. If you want to argue against the facts: Go on! But please don't expect that anybody listens to you.

quote:

Might take the time ship milennia to travel between planets...Does it take that long for the causality paradox their weapon creates to travel through massive areas of space?...No.


Gosh. That wasn't the point. The point was that the long time the ship would need to perform it's task while the SW people would be aware of it's presence would give them a huge amount of time to initiate counter-meassures, which might just be conducted by modifying present technology or deploying it on a greater scale.


quote:

That'll be you making up hypothetical ships again then?


Learn how to read. I don't have to make ship ups. Warships are needed and if one producer doesn't deliver them, another will do the job. That you can't cope with the effects of a weapon that you have introduced to the debate yourself is not my problem.

quote:

The one thing that is predictable is that using on the SW worlds and species would have no effect on the ST worlds or species...Obviously because they have never interacted (Although there is a planet in ST called Alderaan which I thought was a cool homage to SW)


roll eyes (sarcastic)

It would change the initiate battle that is the topic of this debate, because we would see other ships being used or other people commanding the corresponding forces. The changes would happen in the SW universe only, yes, but the results would still be unpredictable. You can't really be that dense, jaden.


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Old Post Oct 5th, 2010 08:00 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by jaden101
Why are you still repeating this?....I've shown you figures from real life science that mean a mark II photon torpedo can give a yield of 650 gigatons...3 times that of your stated turbolasers.


And I see you ignore multiple canon showings I posted that blow 650 gigatons right out the water. A cubic meter of Tirtanin (sp?) per the TM (fair game since that is your source) takes 2.4 Terajoules to vaporize so if it was anywhere near 650 GT it would vaporize entire fleets of GCS class ships. And the 200 GT is for a medium Turbolaser on a Clone Wars era Troop Transport. An Imperial class II Star Destroyer has a peak reactor output of 2.2 Petatons per second (see wikipedia page that cites ISC) and if necessary can put all of this into weapons.

*Sits back with popcorn and waits for a response to posts that disprove 690 GT PT*

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Robtard
Correction. You use incorrect figures.

If someone else has already shown the work, why should I redo it? Especially considering you'll ignore, as you have.

Where do you get your 65 megaton yield from?

Memory-Alpha supports what Jaden posted, though he seems to low-ball it a bit:

"The second type, at maximum yield, achieves the level of destructive force of an antimatter pod rupture. Antimatter is stored as liquid or slush on starships. (pg. 69) Density of mere liquid antideuterium is around 160 kilograms per cubic meter. [b]According to this comparison the high annihilation rate energy release would be comparable to about 690 gigatons
. For the sake of plausibility the affected blast area at these intensities might be extremely small. Visual effects on-screen would seem to confirm this."


Nice double standard given itís the TM that gives a maxium yield of 65.4 Megatons of TNT to a Photon Torpedo.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Robtard
Hahhhaahaa, trolling at its finest. You got that number from Wiki, which list the 'TNG: Tech Manual' as the source. It's not canon though.

Using Voyager as a source (ie something that's canon)a Class-6 PT has an explosive yield of 200 isotons / 25 isoton yield. Kim (the Asian) stated that 50 isotons can destroy a small planet.

Memory-Alpha is canon, when they cite the show(s) as a source.


Hahaha. The wiki cites the TNG TM from which the 690 GT claim is also coming. Very nice double standard. And I already showed that the 50 Isoton claim was hyperbole when I posted a link to the scene and quoted that a 25 Isoton torpedo could destroy a city.

Old Post Oct 18th, 2010 11:28 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Borbarad

Especially since you're operating under the false premise, that the SW universe doesn't have access to time-travel. The Darkstaff ("Echoes of the Jedi") can be used to summon a force storm to go to any desired time period. The Orb of Passage ("The Secret of Tet-Ami") was implied to control the flow of time itself and the Eternity Crystal ("Dark Knight's Devilry") in possession of the Jerni can be used to rewind time to a certain negative incident and correct the changes. This give the SW universe the means to destroy the Krenim before they construct the ship or simply undo the changes they made using it, rendering their task futile.


That's pretty cool. So with introducing such powers, that allows for Janeway to contact Q for a few favors...

Old Post Dec 30th, 2010 06:20 PM
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