Yet clearly we can't apply real life physics to fictional elements and materials. What we do know is that ST also has fictional materials and that the Borg have been able to assimilate new ones that they encounter without too much difficulty. So no...You're continual reliance on this "no limits fallacy" is simply pointless given that I'm the one who stated the Borg's limits shown on screen.
But is this really the route we want to take in this debate?...Seriously.
Because I could just as easily say that their are materials and elements in the ST universe that have never been encountered in SW thus they wouldn't affect them.
Bit silly isn't it?
You tell me. So I make a single error and that means every other calculation is automatically wrong...What kind of fallacy is that?
Still waiting on the "calculations genius" quote though.
So we can't theorize how much of it is or can be made but we can theorize that SW would have no trouble destroying Spock's ship...Despite no evidence of the limits of either....Bit faulty and contradicting logic there.
Yet the Borg encounter new technologies and material constantly and assimilate them without difficulty.
Considering their strength is to assess, adapt and overcome, it's not unreasonable. SW tech is still just tech; arguably the Borg have and have faced more advanced technologies before, ships that heal, transporters, replicators to name a few. Borg have assimilated thousands and thousands of worlds, "different stuff" they've run into.
Again, it's not a "no limit fallacy", saying over and over won't make it true. Blasters are energy weapons, just the same. Your insistence that the Force will work anywhere is closer to a no limit fallacy, if we're going to start throwing around fallacy accisations as a means.
Jedi doing that isn't beyond unreasonable. Though the Borg could in time adapt to and overcome that, given enough attempts at resistance. Borg have billions of Drones to use as canon-fodder; I'm not so sure there are that many Jedi/Sith should there be some massive ground battle of Jedi vs Drones.
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Have you, by chance, ignored my last posting. Apparently, yes, you did. Just to sum it up: The MKNM isn't an explosive device, can't destroy lightyears of space and is, in general, a total illogical piece of technology. So I suggest that you take this pile of red herrings you have shipped in and eat them yourself, because I won't waste my time with that.
Really? They have encountered repulsorlift technology, which is based on material that they mine out of black holes in the SW universe? They have encountered metals altered on a monecular level to such an extend that they are easily able to withstand a supernova explosion? They've encountered hypermatter and devices making use of that material, ranging from conventional hyperdrives to the hypermatter reactor of the Death Star. The latter being an energy source that produces much more energy per second that our sun in an entire year?
Really? They've encountered all that? They've adapted to technology using language programming that they don't understand? They have encountered force-enhanced technology, such as the ships used by the Infinite Empire or weapons on the flagships of the Ancient Sith Empire? They have encountered devices able to move planets and entire stars around with apparent ease?
No. Apparently, they didn't. They didn't even see stuff coming close to that. Yet, according to you, they would still be able to adapt to all of that and assimilate it easily, despite of the fact that those things at times violate the most basic concepts of physics they encounted in their universe? Despite the fact that evidence shows that when something "unfamiliar" pops up (Data, Species 8472) they are totally lost?
Source?
Which is based on the (false) assumption that energy shields in SW work like ST shields.
I said that you attempted to talk down the range of the SW weapons. Fact. You counter this by listing the range of ST weapons again. Brilliant. Another red herring for the above mentioned pile.
You do realize that, allowing the Q and the Douwd, I would simply take the Force, point out that it has a will ("The Phantom Menace", "Revenge of the Sith" novelization), dictate that it's will would be that the SW universe survives, and it simply kills anything present in the ST universe, including the Q and the Douwd, with nobody being able to defend against the energy field that trancends the universe. Does that make sense? No.
Do omnipotent (or almost omnipotent) beings make sense, that can win this battle with a mere thought? No. Especially not if they rather don't give a ducky about what happens in their universe, as it simply doesn't affect them. Otherwise I could throw the Bedlam spirits at the Douwd and let Darth Nihilus force drain the entire Q continuum, instantly killing all it's inhabitants.
Shall we limit it to technology? Bias towards the SW universe, which features a lot of technologies that do require the force in order to operate them. Yet still the SW universe would steamroll the ST forces.
Can you debate without forming biased arguments everywhere to ensure you preferred side wins? That would be great.
The theoretical maximum yield for a photon torpedo was 25 isotons. Which is a term that isn't defined. 25 isotons can be half of the yield required to "destroy a small star" or one quarter of a bomb needed to create a 800 KM explosion. Where was the calculation for your 600+ gigaton figure again?
You should check the episodes again. There is no warp movement possible in fluid space, because it's not "space" but "matter".
Really? That "seconds" apparently lasted long enough to first enter the transwarp hub, then fly around in it, until the future Janeway has taken out the Borg. Then the Voyager destroys the hub, flies out and is pursuit by a Borg Sphere which also has time to catch up with the escaping ship and fire on it again and again, for a time long enough to result in a fail of the ablative armor from the future. That "seconds" do even span several minutes in the actual episode and it might have taken hours in real time. Which doesn't even take into consideration, that we don't know how far away the Voyager was from Earth when starting that final journey in the first place.
So nice exeggeration of events occuring on screen without any conclusive evidence presented. Good job.
What did I say about the help of quasi-omnipotent beings? *shrugs*
Which led to Paris suffering from heavy mutation, turning him into some lizzard like creature. Obviously not useable in context of this battle.
Millenium Falcon crossed 40.000 lightyears from Tatooine to Alderaan in seven hours in "A New Hope". You can do the math yourself, I suppose.
Oh, yes. Sorry. He could just alter time and space with his thoughts. Nothing nigh omnipotent right there. Total normal human being.
Do I really have to explain the concept again?
The ship exist outside of the regular space-time continuum of the ST universe, rendering it untouchable for conventional weapons. "The Force" is clearly not a conventional weapon, neither is an object that resembles a black hole.
Really?
They are stranded in a foreign Galaxy, where most people (maybe) don't even speak their language. They are seeking for knowledge about Galactic history, which they would need to study. This means 25,000 years of the history of a Galaxy-spanning civilization, which uncounted millenia prior to that, to figure out the "key planets". Then, they would need to visit said planets, spread through-out the Galaxy, using a maximum speed of Warp 6. It's rather clear that this alone would take several centuries.
After they've done that, they would need to travel to the Yuuzhan Vong Galaxy (2,4 million lightyears @ Warp 6 - millenia) and repeat the action again. You were saying?
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We can't apply real life physics to fictional elements? Where am I doing this? I'm applying SW physics here. The Borgs have assimilated materials that are naturally present within their universe or refined in a way that they can understand. They weren't dealing with stuff absolutely alien to them - with the exception of Species 8472. We know what happened, don't we?
Yet still you simply assume, that they will easily walk into an SW ship and assimilate everything and everybody on board, when all of their normal tactics and techniques to do so, might completely fail them. You don't even mind.
It's nice that you "show" everything, jaden. But why do you ignore it then, after having shown it? The Borg have limits. And you apparently want to ignore them instead of coming up with any kind of accessment, repeating what "special case" Species 8472 was because of their alien technology. The SW technology would by no means be less alien to the Borg than that of Species 8472 was.
Wrong. You could say that SW techs wouldn't be able to built the Enterprise (just as example) from scratch, because they wouldn't understand the fundamental workings of transporters for example, or would lack materials like dilithium crystals to do the job. I'm not saying that the Borg wouldn't be able to use their weapons against SW materials. The point is that they don't necessarily will understand SW technology and hence won't be able to utilize it. And that's already ignoring the improbabilities of them being able to get a piece of that in their hands.
It would be a hasty generalization, which I made to taunt you. Nice how you haven't been able to link me to your calculations that "prove everything" so far. It must be a hard job to do.
Species 8472 and Data do happily disagree to that statement. How different from their "known" technology does technology be that they can't assimilate? Data is the product of a scientist, even though a genious one, that worked with material present in his Galaxy. Still he's immune to assimilation, even though they managed to attach some skin onto him. Species 8472 uses weapons that is different from the regular laser-themed stuff in the ST Galaxy, and the Borg fail to adapt to it or assimilate it.
Yet you ignore that, pointing out that this "special cases" don't apply in this debate. Why? The SW technology is far more uncommon and alien to the Borg than Data or Species 8472 tech could be. Not to mention the Vong's bio-engeneering or the force based technology of the Rakata and the Ancient Sith.
To the powers of a energy field that binds all life in the universe together? Yes. Again the "no limits fallacy" rears its ugly head.
@Robtard
No. SW tech is tech that is based on fundamental different ideas from technology in the ST universe. This includes most weapons (turbolasers, blasters, lightsabers). ST tech isn't "broad" in that department. Almost all civilizations use the same propulsion technique, utilize similar weapons and technology in general. When the Borg encounter something "out of line" they usually fail to adapt or assimilate it (Data, Species 8472).
And "more advanced" then a civilization that "mines" black holes and harnesses the power of stars directly? I don't think so.
Right. You do realize the difference between an entity that has been descriped as having no limits (the Force) and a species that has been shown to have only limited abilities (the Borg). When I say the force can do something, presenting proof that suggests so, it's inductive reasoning. When you say the Borg can do something without presenting proof, "because they always did it" ignoring the proof to the contrary, it's a no limit fallacy.
And your ignorance towards SW and ST tech is mind-blowing. A blaster is not an energy weapon, as I've already told you. A phaser does emit a laser-like energy beam. A concept that would be conceived as "archaic" by people in the SW universe. A blaster doesn't emit a coherent beam but fires either superheated, ionized plasma (Clone Army weapons) or high energy ionized gas particles at their target. So, technically, each blaster beam is an explosive cloud of matter being shot at the target. I've never seen the Borg adapting to explosions or kinetic energy, which is what would hit them - not some nice energy particles that just need the right shielding frequency to be rendered useless.
Apparently, you're completely unaware of the SW EU and the established power of Sith and Jedi alike. A group of 21 Sith Lords of the Brotherhood of Darkness unleashed a force based storm that turned a nice part of the surface of Ruusan into a lifeless desert. The same Sith Lords later constructed a force based weapon (the thought bomb), that was capable of exterminating almost all life on the planet ("Darth Bane: Path of Destruction").
4,000 years before the events in the original SW trilogy, a Sith Witch on the planet of Ambria conducted an experiment in Sith Alchemy that wiped out all life on the surface of the planet, turning it into a desert ("Tales of the Jedi: The Saga of Nomi Sunrider"). Darth Nihilus exterminated all life on the planet Katarr with a single force attack from the orbit ("Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords"). Sith Lord Exar Kun used a force drain on ten-thousands of his Massassi slaves, killing them instantly ("The Sith War") and wielded amulets that projected room-sized beams of Dark Side energy strong enough to casually atomize anything in their way.
The Falanassi, a sect of force users, have utilized the power of the force to simply render themselves invisible. Luke Skywalker used that technique, to remove an entire planet from sight ("Black Fleet trilogy: Tyrant's Test"). Sith Lord Naga Sadow casually summoned tangible illusions worth 90 % of the fighting force assigned to conquer three planets simultaneously utilizing Sith magic ("The Fall of the Sith Empire").
And you think the Borg will adapt? Right. Even if they do: When confronted with the highly force resistant Yuuzhang Vong, Jedi Tahiri Veila (while captured and being subject to torture) used the force to crush some of them to death increasing the pressure of their air around them ("New Jedi Order"). This technique has been utilized to crush AT-ST walkers as well (Galen Marek in "The Force Unleashed"). Can the Borg adapt to high pressure? Not to mention that those people could simply rip some nice and huge metal constructions apart and throw them at the Borg (see Dooku in "Attack of the Clones"). Can they also adapt to "tons of metals flying in their direction"?
For the numbers of those Jedi: There have been 10,000 Jedi around the time of "The Phantom Menace" (mentioned in "Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter"). If that is one generation of Jedi, 25,000 years are 1,000 generations of Jedi, the Jedi alone would have 10 million people in their ranks. The Ancient Sith Empire fielded 21 Sith Lords per generation, resulting in about 1680 Sith Lords, with a single of them probably equiped with enough power to take an army of regular soldiers out easily. Then we have the Dark Siders of Revan's Sith Empire, the people gathered under the command of the Sith Emperor ("The Old Republic"), the above mentioned Brotherhood of Darkness and Sidious Sith Order (about 80 Lords from Bane to Sidious).
And you want to put them into a ground battle with the Borg. Just for reference: Have a look at this little movie that shows a pissed off Galen Marek escaping from an Imperial Facility. The Borg would do what exactly against thousands or millions of that kind of fighters? Bore them to death?
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Okay, so just to clear things up, seeing as everything has become convoluted and mixed up. Above question(s) still stands.
Species 8472 are an extra-dimensional alien that has an immune system that can fend of most - if not all - things that penetrate it's body (Biological, Chemical and Technological). So that's the advantage against the Borg that the SW universe doesn't have.
So I explain how it could easily be used so wipe out massive areas of star wars space and because you have no counter for it you ignore it...Great tactic.
Yay for strawman tactics.
The Borg have assimilated non corporeal being from other planes of existence.
Based on that how difficult do you think a piece of material technology is going to be.
The "Data" issue quite obviously PIS. Given the vast amounts of tech and species the Borg have assimilated over the centuries.
They've assimilated transwarp, time travel, transdimensional travel, technology create quantum singularities...the list goes on and on and on.
All of these technologies were obviously "unfamiliar" at one point in time and they all have something in common...They were assimilated.
Species 259 as mentioned in Voyager: The Gift.
Obviously it's not if higher yields have been given on screen.
Are you going to regress into the "haven't encountered SW tech" every time your arguments fail?...Obviously they've not encountered them because it's an entirely different fictional universe...Does this negate the fact that the Borg have adapted to and assimilated thousands of species along with their technology?...No...And on that basis it's safe and logical to assume they can do the same to SW species and tech given that they're not exactly massively different to the extent of species 8472 (nor as powerful)
You do talk the biggest lot of shite some times.
Wow...just wow...I don't think I've ever read a more ridiculous argument on this topic ever.
Neither Bedlam spirits or Nihilus are anywhere near close to the power of Q and the Douwd.
Obviously not for the massive mutlitude of reasons and techs I've given over the course of this and other threads. SW simply has no answer to phasic and temporal weapons and every SW superweapon is matched and out done by even some crap ST weapons.
I will.
Quite obviously it wasn't hours and even if it was...It still takes days, weeks or even months to cross the galaxy using hyperdrive (depending on the type)
We also do know where and how far from Earth Voyager was when making that journey.
The hub used in the episode is the one on the right hand side of this picture
The traveler wasn't even close to omnipotent. He was humanoid.
Love it when you talk pish.
The Sikarians have folded space transporter technology than can instantly transport over the same distance.
No...you don't have to explain it again. It was beaten the 1st time. Move on.
Universal translator tech rarely has problems translating species even in the 1st encounter.
Yet a single Borg drone could assimilate masses of information and process it almost instantly. (the Drone in the episode "drone" assimilated 47,000,000,000 teraquads of information...The writers of Voyager deliberately used a fictional term of "quads" because computer advancements have frequently outstriped previous fiction by orders of magnitude in terms of computing power.... Data had 100,000,000 gigabytes of memory which was only a fraction of that of the Enterprise D.
So no...I really don't think it would take long to figure out the importance of a handful of key planets.
Again, Species 8472 is a poor comparison to SW tech and your Data claim is just outright wrong, his tech wasn't beyond their ability. Repeating this over and over isn't making it correct.
So then the Force would be like being omnipresent/omnipotent and not allowed here, if it was as you say "no limits". Though that is wrong, as it clearly has limits. It doesn't work everywhere in the SW universe to begin with. Except your argument for the Force is faulty (it has limits), while mine for the Borg is within reason, they've only failed with Species 8472, though returned later and were able to effectively attack/kill them with modified nanoprobes. ie they adapted to the threat.
What's mind-blowing is your arrogance, coupled with your ignorance. Borg spheres use plasma beams. The Defiant Class ships fire their non-beam (looks similar to SW blaster fire) through plasma conduits. Romulans use plasma weapons, including plasma torpedos. So no, plasma-based weapons aren't something foreign to the Borg or in Star Trek.
Yes, Borg adapting is what they do. Something affects them, they assess and create a defense. As I said though, Force users could prove tricky, but as Obi Wan said the Force is living energy. Even if we go with your claim of "10 million Jedi", Borg have billions of drones and millions of ships. They also add to their ranks during fights.
Are you saying the Jedi/Sith should not be allowed here?
Should we discuss tech/fleet only? You know, any being/weapon that is beyond uber, we discount? If so, where do we draw the line? Death Star? Centerpoint Station? Red matter bomb?
Should we talk Republic only, no Empire? Vice versa? If we talk Republic only, does that mean we cannot use TIE's or the Death Stars? If we talk Empire only, can we include Centerpoint Station?
I ask these questions because there seems to be some discrepancy as to what each side has access to.
Here's the way I see it...When talking about "Star Wars versus Star Trek", we should include only what is within each respective galaxy. Like what is within the ST Earth galaxy, and what is in the SW galaxy. All of it. If the Vong are not from the SW galaxy (they aren't, obviously), we shouldn't include them. If the Borg or the Kemrin time weapon thing are not from the ST Earth galaxy, we shouldn't include them.
My ten cents.
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Last edited by Rogue Jedi on Sep 20th, 2010 at 11:03 PM
I was posing that if the Force indeed "had no limits", it would then be omnipotent/omnipresent and not allowed. But the Force does have limits, so it was a faulty statement from him.
I feel your sentiment, having a 'everything that every was' is a bit too epic in scope and the factors are hard to calculate, considering what people considering canon or not.
Pretty much now, everything mentioned from Star Trek with the exception of Species 8472 is from the Milky Way galaxy (eg Borg from the Delta Quadrant), where ST resides. SW has done the same from their galaxy, which the exception of the Vong.
Personally, a smaller scope battle would be more sensible. Fleet of ships versus a fleet of ships, or something like that.
OK, since the thread starter is not around, shall we take it upon ourselves to list what is kosher here?
This sounds good to me: Republic/Empire versus The Federation. Everything that they have access to within their galaxy, nothing more. If they had an alliance at any time with an opposing/neutral force in their galaxy (ie: The Republic/Chiss, The Republic/Empire, the Republic/Hapes Consortium). Old Republic, New Republic, Empire, Chiss, Hapes, etc versus the Federation and whoever they might have allied with in the past, as long as said allies were within the Earth galaxy.
All Jedi/Sith included, to not count them is silly.
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Last edited by Rogue Jedi on Sep 20th, 2010 at 11:23 PM
Of course. As long as said allies originate from within the Earth galaxy. Same goes for SW, their allies must be from within the SW galaxy.
Basically it's everyone/everything from within the ST galaxy versus everyone/everything from within the SW galaxy.
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The Federation is 150 or so planets banded together, the Empire controls a galaxy. So the odds would be a bit skewed towards Star Wars, to put it mildly. Even if we include The Klingons, Rumulans and Cardassians who have allied with the Federation at times, it'd still be off in size/scope. Though the Borg have allied themselves with The Federation too. But bringing them in with their millions of ships would then skew the other way.
As I said, it'd be more sensible to have a much smaller battle, say 50 vs 50. But the argument would sway to Turbo Lasers being a billion times stronger, The Borg not being able to assimilate etc as it has been since a couple pages into this thread.
All the ways you wish you could be, that's me. I look like you wanna look, I **** like you wanna ****, I am smart, capable, and most importantly, I am free in all the ways that you are not.
Everything Vs Everything is what's basically been argued here for 45 pages. I don't think SW could win considering the massive size of The Borg Collective and what they can do. Others obviously disagree.
Well, IMO the Borg or anything else ST has to offer cannot counter Jedi/Sith foresight, Centerpoint station, The Sun Crusher, dovin basals, force storm or even Thrawn. Not to mention Jaina, Jacen and Anakin flying together using the Jedi battle meld.
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Can you honestly say that, having never read the SW EU?
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