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Home » Star Wars » Star Wars: TV Series » Episode 34 - The Mandalore Plot


Episode 34 - The Mandalore Plot
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Ushgarak
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Registered: Sep 2000
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, UK

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Go check the noted canon rule reminder threads in the other SW areas for the last word on canon, ms. marvel. It is not an area that we encourage discussion of due to the resulting arguments, so there is a general "don't debate how canon works, just follow the rules" edict in effect there.

Meanwhile, GL ALWAYS made it clear that anything any EU author ever did was at risk in case GL ever weanted to do the area himself. It has happened before (Boba Fett) and will happen again, and I have no issue with it. The EU Mandalorian thing is no great shakes anyway, and it is common knowledge that Traviss' stuff is abysmal.

This interpretation should be judged entirely on its own merits.


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Last edited by Ushgarak on Jan 28th, 2010 at 08:22 AM

Old Post Jan 27th, 2010 09:48 AM
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ares834
Knight of Ren

Registered: Apr 2009
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by REXXXX
Where is there a black lightsaber? That will make me spectacularly sad...

Look and weep at what the Mandalorian uses...

Old Post Jan 27th, 2010 02:29 PM
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Ordo
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by REXXXX
Where is there a black lightsaber? That will make me spectacularly sad...


Actually, there is hope on this one. From the images its clearly not a saber, it has a curved end. I think this is the appearance of the vibrosword.

Can be seen here.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by REXXXX
I'd rather appease the Flanneled One than lose my job....


Haha. I would tell Lucas no over this. I'd try to convince him to drop the plot completely, as he did last time, or make sure it fits in with WELL established canon. But thats me, and since it woudl kill to be part of the creative team for this series, it would be a very hard decision.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by REXXXX
I agree that is frustrating when higher canon overwrites some of the better EU stuff. It doesn't happen often, thankfully, whereas the EU turns things on their heads quite often.


No, it doesnt. I'm no where near the authroty on canon though, but since some of these thing extend back close to the origins of Star Wars itself (certianly to the origin of the Star Wars franchise with Empire), I think has has to be the most egregious example to date.

Lucas is deathstaring Mandalore. I just hope the Mandalorians dont go with it.

And this is where my rationality comes in. Unlike a lot of my Mando buddies, I dont care about these pacifist dar'manda "New Mandalorians" I think they can fit into the canon fine. Besides, if nothign else, it'll be fun wacthing the damn traitors get shot (though unfortuantely its by the Death Watch....can BOTH sides lose please?). If Lucas wants to scaffold around well establish facts, fine, but what ticks me off is the direct overwriting. Especially when it seem like the MOST sever problems can be solved now by one thing, change the planet from "Mandalore" to something else. Make it a cultural exodus to find a new home away from your past. It could fit in great with the plot. One simple word, but Lucas/Filoni wont do that.


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Old Post Jan 27th, 2010 04:30 PM
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Ordo
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Ushgarak
The EU Mandalorian thing is no great shakes anyway, and it is common knowledge that Traviss' stuff is abysmal.


No one I know thinks that. I guess there is always one. Having, unfortunately, read some of the other EU trash, I think you have a gross misunderstanding of what qualifies as abysmal.

It was so abysmal, it spawned organizations like the Mercs which have 200 members insane enough to have their own armor, let alone the other people like me who just participate. It was founded in 2007, after Traviss books. Coincidence? No. It spawned a language, something that has never been done in star wars. Mandalorians were brought back in KOTOR, in Legacy, now in Clone Wars. It must have sucked so horribly. Thats why she got 5 (/6) novels in her own personal Star Wars series, let alone the other ones she wrote.

So abysmal...

We all know you like stating your opinons as everyone elses, unfortuantely, for you, fact seems to point in the complete opposite direction. You're welcome to your opinon though, and I'd wish youd explain it instead of just of just attributing it to everyone.


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Last edited by Ordo on Jan 27th, 2010 at 05:08 PM

Old Post Jan 27th, 2010 04:57 PM
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ares834
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Just to say it on most SW forums, such as The Force.Net and the Old Republic, KT's works are thought of as trash...

Last edited by ares834 on Jan 27th, 2010 at 05:17 PM

Old Post Jan 27th, 2010 05:11 PM
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ares834
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Ordo
Actually, there is hope on this one. From the images its clearly not a saber, it has a curved end. I think this is the appearance of the vibrosword.

Can be seen here.

Unfortuneately its a lightsaber...

Old Post Jan 27th, 2010 05:15 PM
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S_D_J
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by ares834
Look and weep at what the Mandalorian uses...


Vibrosword?



I liked the preview...

This will be my first contact with Mandolarians and I think I'll like it


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Old Post Jan 27th, 2010 05:20 PM
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AthenasTrgrFngr
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Ushgarak
[B]Go check the noted canon rule reminder threads in the other SW areas for the last word on canon, ms. marvel. It is not an area that we encourage discussion of due to the resulting arguments, so there is a general "don't debate how cnaon works, just follow the rules" edict in effect there.


quote:
again obviously that doesnt hold true in an official manner or in a debate with rules like the kind that go on here where we must adhere to lucas idiotic canon,


stick out tongue


edit- thats not a vibrosword guys. a vibrosword is made out of a metal. that weapon has a blade made out of some type of energy... ergo its a lightsaber or a real close equivelent.

it doesnt look ridiculous at all to me though. dunno what you guys are on about.

double edit- no... wait... it does look like a vibrosword if you go on Wookie... meh i dunno.

triple edit- ... theres a difference between a vibroblade and a vibrosword apaprently >>


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Old Post Jan 27th, 2010 05:32 PM
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Ordo
Enforcer of the Republic

Registered: Feb 2005
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by S_D_J
This will be my first contact with Mandolarians and I think I'll like it


You've never seen the movies? Played KOTOR?

And thsi is exactly wha Lucas is trying to achieve. Convince a bunch of children that Star Wars is actually like Y instead of X.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by ares834
Just to say it on most SW forums, such as The Force.Net and the Old Republic, KT's works are thought of as trash...


More vague statements. Especailly when I've read a lot of those boards and there are just ad many supporters as detractors.

For being trash they certainly brought Mandalorians back to the forefront. There are plenty of circles in which they are also highly revered.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by ares834
Unfortuneately its a lightsaber...

****

Well, we can add that to the pile of failures. I wont even begin to comment on the Mandalorian using a lightsaber thing.

This Friday is going to suck.


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Old Post Jan 27th, 2010 05:50 PM
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Ordo
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If I can add one more beautiful nugget, its the fortune cookie for this episode.

"If you ignore the past, you jeopardize your future."


I dont know wether to laugh at the blatant ignorance or cry at the hypocrisy.


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Old Post Jan 27th, 2010 07:58 PM
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REXXXX
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Sorry, Ordo, but you're the only one taking that train. I take each piece of Star Wars given us with a grain of salt; it all is just part of a big picture and overarching mythos. To narrow it down to Jedi or Mandalorians or starfighters is cutting out way too much of that big picture. I think this episode trilogy will be thoroughly enjoyable, especially because they've paid closer attention to it due to fan response to Mandalorian reinterpretation.

I also do not think that Traviss was resonsible for the Mandalorians showing up in a lot of other media; if anything, the clones showing up in AOTC was where it started. The language can be accredited to her, sure, but really... Ush is right, it is generally considered that Traviss is suckish. My real qualms are with how she responds to the fan base.

Last but not least, as per canon, Lucas has every right to alter his creation as he sees fit...


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Old Post Jan 27th, 2010 09:16 PM
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Peach
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Ordo
No one I know thinks that. I guess there is always one. Having, unfortunately, read some of the other EU trash, I think you have a gross misunderstanding of what qualifies as abysmal.

It was so abysmal, it spawned organizations like the Mercs which have 200 members insane enough to have their own armor, let alone the other people like me who just participate. It was founded in 2007, after Traviss books. Coincidence? No. It spawned a language, something that has never been done in star wars. Mandalorians were brought back in KOTOR, in Legacy, now in Clone Wars. It must have sucked so horribly. Thats why she got 5 (/6) novels in her own personal Star Wars series, let alone the other ones she wrote.

So abysmal...

We all know you like stating your opinons as everyone elses, unfortuantely, for you, fact seems to point in the complete opposite direction. You're welcome to your opinon though, and I'd wish youd explain it instead of just of just attributing it to everyone.


Um. So since a tiny percentage of people think it's good, it must thus be awesome and the fact that popular opinion is that it's trash must be discounted?

All your "facts" show is that there's a few people who like it, nothing more.


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Old Post Jan 27th, 2010 09:26 PM
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Ordo
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by REXXXX
Sorry, Ordo, but you're the only one taking that train. I take each piece of Star Wars given us with a grain of salt; it all is just part of a big picture and overarching mythos. To narrow it down to Jedi or Mandalorians or starfighters is cutting out way too much of that big picture. I think this episode trilogy will be thoroughly enjoyable, especially because they've paid closer attention to it due to fan response to Mandalorian reinterpretation.


Filoni has already made clear he hasn't. Saying 1. they didn't care about the pile of EU already written and 2. that the only vision he cares about is Lucas'. Lucas always directly states he doesnt care about fan opinions, and I donít see any instance (perhaps except for the reduction of Jar Jar in the AOTC and ROTS), where he has taken that into account. He said so on Jon Stewart last week. Filonis has already stated he doesnít expect heavy Mando people to like it. He said "it will raise issues"

Am I the only one here? Apparently. Congrats on all 5 people who still frequent this forum. Maybe its time for me to move on.

And you dont know my fandom, so donít comment on what I do and do not appreciate.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by REXXXX
I also do not think that Traviss was responsible for the Mandalorians showing up in a lot of other media; if anything, the clones showing up in AOTC was where it started. The language can be accredited to her, sure, but really...

um...what? The only way clones and "Mandalorians" are related is in the EU, as Ush is so fond of reminding us.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by REXXXX
Ush is right, it is generally considered that Traviss is suckish. My real qualms are with how she responds to the fan base.


You keep bringing it up. Shes an immature b*tch. Everyone knows this. Can we move on?

The Republic Commando Novels are the only decent material to come out of Star Wars besides the prequels (which are only decent because they are epic films).

And is she responsible? Yes, I think there is too much of a correlation to say otherwise.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Peach
Um. So since a tiny percentage of people think it's good, it must thus be awesome and the fact that popular opinion is that it's trash must be discounted?

All your "facts" show is that there's a few people who like it, nothing more.


Whos opinion? Yours? "tiny percentage" my arse. If you're not informed what a community there is out there, then thats your ignorance...not mine. I've gotten 5 letter from independent people over the past months to Lucasanimation over the Mandalore debacle.

What I have shown is that this is the basis of Sta Wars for a lot of people, including a good number of my friends. This is, of course, in contrast to all the spit and hyperbole I have recieved from the detractors.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by REXXXX
Last but not least, as per canon, Lucas has every right to alter his creation as he sees fit...


A lot of fans suck his d*ck like most other people here. I wont. He has a lot of dumb ideas and I don't accept every poorly crafted piece of dialogue that falls out of his mouth. What Lucas is doing is destroying the permanency of Star Wars: things established before I was born.

"If you ignore the past, you jeopardize your future."

This is not an issue of some image in a comic form the 1980s or a line in one book. Lucas approved these details over and over and over and over again for decades. This is the setting for entire novels, a planet that have appeared in videogames, in comics...this is not some little piece of EU trivia. Can he be a d*ck and redo it? Sure. He is. That doesnít mean that I have to roll over and take it like everyone else seems to enjoy doing.

What sucks is when you have waited and waited for a show and it touches on the deepest part of what you most appreciate about Star Wars and deletes it. Its not Lucasí repainting the Mandos, his bending, or shaping. If I were a rich diíkut like him, Iíd do it how I wanted too. But Iíd also accept what is written and evolve the plot. Itís the overwriting.

I know that some people dont like Traviss. I know that people may not care about Mandalorians. But I'm not ignorant in denying that antoher side exists. I'm here to promote my opinons, and I like discussing them, not because I dont think anything else exists.

Now does anyone else have anythign to contibute besides "Ordo is dumb?"


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Last edited by Ordo on Jan 27th, 2010 at 11:43 PM

Old Post Jan 27th, 2010 11:38 PM
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ares834
Knight of Ren

Registered: Apr 2009
Location: United States


 

My problem with Traviss is her reaction to Sw fans.

When fans called her out on certain things such as vilifying the Jedi and the three million clone number she reacted in a terrible manner.

She accused us of being neo-nazis, for liking Jedi, explaining that the Jedi were just Nazis anyway and that they were a genetically superior master race.

She accused us of being misogynists for telling her that she had not done her research. Insinuating that we simply thought a woman couldn't understand Star Wars. In truth no Star Wars fan ever said no woman, just her.

The worst of all...

She compared us to terrorists, coining the phrase "Talifan" and hurling it at her detractors.

However, her Jedi Hate is also insane...

quote:
Karen Traviss
I see Vader as a tragic character who's been betrayed by everyone, and I can't help thinking of the Jedi as self-serving unelected elitist spoon-benders making whoopee on Republic taxpayers' credits. It's an iconoclastic journo world-view. Believe me, Order 66 was long overdue. I have a couple of Jedi that I don't want to shoot on sight, but they're my own creations, so I could make them a little humbler and more aware of the consequences they create for others.


Genocide is just tops, isn't it? What was your guys' favorite part of Order 66? Mine was when the little kids get slaughtered.

Last edited by ares834 on Jan 28th, 2010 at 01:38 AM

Old Post Jan 28th, 2010 01:30 AM
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Ordo
Enforcer of the Republic

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Hey. I've called her unprofessional, immature, and a b!tch. Thats not a message of support for her person. I've said shes wrong on the size of the clone army; the issue that brought about her meltdown. You have nothing on me there.

On the Jedi though, I think you're dead wrong. And I'm glad you're the first person here to actually articulate why you dont like her work. I'd love to go into more detail, but I simply dont have time tonight, so I'll start with this.

What made the RC videogame so great was that it reinvisioned what star wars would look like from a Clone's point of view. Its bulkier, grittier, and darker. War is more real, it has real consequences. You fight you get injured. You're enemies gut splatter in your face. You're alone against some badass machines.

Its not the pretty ligths, philosophy, and romantic scenescapes of the ever-infallable Jedi.

This is what inspird Traviss, and me. The movies are told from high society. The Jedi rub elbows with Senators, live in their vaulted temple, recite their dogma. Where do we see Jedi solving a problem peacefully (Other than Qui-Gon using the force to influnce watto's chance cube?). Not once in the prequels do we see a Jedi helping the poor (Qui-Gon giving extra money to Shmi was the one exception) (I guess this proves Qui-Gon is the only true Jedi in the prequels...and he died.). Not once do we see Jedi passionate about an issue (other than Anakin being in love).

What if we looked at it from a different perspective? From the bottom up and NOT the top down? This is how Traviss examines the Jedi and why her books are not only unique but gronudbreaking.

They Jedi betrayed everyhting they stood for and they got waxd for it. They stood by as a tyrant stayed years past his terms, eroded democracy. They fought, led a galactic WAR even though they are peacekeepers. They were deeply involved in politics, asking their own members to lie (Anakin). Even Kenobi wouldn't stick up for that decision. They rotted from the inside out.

And you want to talk about genocide?! How about USING a pre-paid army of genetically modified theirteen year olds? Humans grown, without rights, without citizenship, without a choice to fight. Sending them into battle, killing them. Don't clones die too? How many civilians died in this war? How many Geonosians? How many Wookiees? How many innocents when fragments of starships cam crashing down into planets? People die in war. Jedi included. They were in a position to stop it and they failed at their duty.

The ironic part is even the Clone Wars has brought up these issues. Anakin has no qualms using torture. Bariss questions their role as peacekeepers. The Lurmen challenge the Jedi's role in the war. Slick challenges Clone's rights, their choice to fight. The difference has been that Clone Wars has never sided against the Jedi, but Filoni has challenged them. Traviss has just accepted that same criticism and subsequently wrote this brilliant series that protrays what its like to be a human trapped in the middle of a farsical nightmare of a war. She looked form the bottom up and saw a different story of the same events, a complimentary story that adds an amazing depth to the Star Wars universe.

Traviss wrote novels that THINK. She looked at something in a new way, a way I have always wanted to see. Regardless of what an ignorant, hyperactive di'kut she is, she still came up with the most brilliant star wars story since the prequels, and the characters to boot. I feel the same way about her as I do Lucas, who also ACTIVELY insults his fans and is rather dense himself. But he gave us a story, a brilliant story, and the story is what counts.


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Last edited by Ordo on Jan 28th, 2010 at 05:02 AM

Old Post Jan 28th, 2010 04:57 AM
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Ushgarak
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Ordo
No one I know thinks that. I guess there is always one. Having, unfortunately, read some of the other EU trash, I think you have a gross misunderstanding of what qualifies as abysmal.

It was so abysmal, it spawned organizations like the Mercs which have 200 members insane enough to have their own armor, let alone the other people like me who just participate. It was founded in 2007, after Traviss books. Coincidence? No. It spawned a language, something that has never been done in star wars. Mandalorians were brought back in KOTOR, in Legacy, now in Clone Wars. It must have sucked so horribly. Thats why she got 5 (/6) novels in her own personal Star Wars series, let alone the other ones she wrote.

So abysmal...

We all know you like stating your opinons as everyone elses, unfortuantely, for you, fact seems to point in the complete opposite direction. You're welcome to your opinon though, and I'd wish youd explain it instead of just of just attributing it to everyone.


If you don't know that her work is gneerally considered abysmal by the EU community, you are simply showing ignorance of that community. I was not giving my opinion, I was reporting the general opinion. Personally, I couldn't give a damn about EU work, and even I heard about this storm- though every single fact and opinion she shows demonstrates the work of someone lacking in talent and insight. But to deny that this is the feeling is to stand against the tide. What this comes down to is everyone else having facts and right on their side, but you sticking your fingers in your ears and flatly saying "You are wrong" to everyone. As a result, I am taking action.

I am calling time on that debate as it is detracting from the thread. Ordo, you will just have to accept that no-one agrees with you (and indeed, you are objectively wrong). I am sure you do not like that judgment, but sorry- you will have to live with it. Take it to PM if you have any complaints. You spend far too much time arguing a lone position where no-one agrees with yoiu- you really must learn to take a hint. When a hundred people tell you you are dead, lie down. Rather than seeing yourself as some lone bastion of reason and common sense, you should consider the possibility that your ideas are wrong- and you also express your arguments poorly, and in a way that aggravates people.

Likewise, stop finding excuses to make your tiresomely unintelligent rants against the Jedi.

Bring this back to topic now. As I say, any judgment of the Mandalorians in this episode must stand on the episode's merits, NOT on any irrelevant material from the past- because all EU material is irrelevant in that sense.

That is a moderator judgment; do not debate it.

And ms. marvel, attacking GL's canon counts as well. Please do not do it; that sort of thing encourages canon arguments which is precisely what we want to avoid.

But as a final reminder- canon is canon. It's not good and it is not bad, it just IS. You cannot just take the best bits of something. Canon has to accept the ugly as well as the good. For better or worse, this IS GL's story. You can like bits of it or not like bits of it, but that is ALL you can do. You cannot pick and choose which parts are in the story or not, any more than you can choose which chapters of a novel are real or not; this idea of 'personal canon' is ridiculous. So it is nothing to do with worshipping GL- that insinuation is deeply unwelcome and insulting, considering the amount of considered debate there has been on his merits. It is simply about accepting the truth of the matter. ANd one of those truths that should have been accepted long ago is thayt GL considers the EU an alternative continuity (he even SAID so in interview) and when it comes to his own vision of SW<, he will overwrite it whenever he wants. It would be very odd for him to limit himself due to thre work of other authors whose ideas might have been totally different from GL's own, consdiering that GL is sovereign.

That's the rule, that's the way it is. Move on, folks.

-

I reckon there is a possibility that this will actually be a good episode. Whether it gets a fair hearing from some quarters is another matter.


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Last edited by Ushgarak on Jan 28th, 2010 at 10:11 AM

Old Post Jan 28th, 2010 08:15 AM
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REXXXX
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Location: San Diego

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I also wish to note that at no point did anyone say you were dumb, Ordo. You are entitled to your opinions and your preferences, it's just that when it comes to canon, as Ush has said, Lucas comes out on top against anything ever written for Star Wars. The only real permanence can be seen in the films, and even they have been subject to alterations.

I think we can let the Traviss issue lie. No need to keep dragging it out.

Still... what is with the black lightsaber? The Mandalorian mentions that his ancestors stole it from the Jedi way back when... but how far back are we talking? It looks completely unlike any lightsaber we've seen so far... perhaps an early prototype?


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Old Post Jan 28th, 2010 09:30 AM
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Abu-Bactr
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The whole thing is not such a huge deal.

Darca Nyl used lightsabers.

Its posssible but i dont want nonforesensitives running around with lightsabers.

The New Mandalorians can fit into cannon no problemo.

Old Post Jan 28th, 2010 12:46 PM
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Ordo
Enforcer of the Republic

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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Ushgarak
I reckon there is a possibility that this will actually be a good episode. Whether it gets a fair hearing from some quarters is another matter.


If you think I want this episode to be bad you're nuts. I just refuse to suck on anything thats dropped in front of my face. I like to examine Star Wars critically.

I hate the Death Watch are going to be the characters I'm rooting for, but they will be portrayed more like Mandalorians are. The boot stomp shot is comming, something I've dreamed of seeing since it was in the Republic Commando trailer. We finally get to expand on Jangos fight sequence in AOTC, my favorite sequence in all of the films.

There is a lot I'm looking forward too, but its all integrated as part of the apocalypse.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by REXXXX
Lucas comes out on top against anything ever written for Star Wars. The only real permanence can be seen in the films, and even they have been subject to alterations.


Except this series is still EU. Its not a film. Its not permenant. Some people just dont like to use critical thinking skills.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by REXXXX
I think we can let the Traviss issue lie. No need to keep dragging it out.


A perfect time to end it, right when we get to the heart of the issue.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by REXXXX
Still... what is with the black lightsaber? The Mandalorian mentions that his ancestors stole it from the Jedi way back when... but how far back are we talking? It looks completely unlike any lightsaber we've seen so far... perhaps an early prototype?


Its dumb, adding insult to injury. He said its from the old republic. I'd discuss that, but thats EU, which cannot be discussed in the EU forum, even when its relevant.

Amd all sorts of nonsensatives are running aorund with lightsabers now...so much for a weapon from a more civilised age.


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Old Post Jan 28th, 2010 03:27 PM
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Ushgarak
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Well, the novels did say that they were once more widely used, which makes the non-sensitive use of it possible... then again, that was Alan Dean Foster and he wrote Splinter. Hmm.

Look, we are all agreed that the black sabre is not a great thing... but honestly, I don't think it is THAT big a deal. If that is as bad as things get, fine. I'd rather a black lightsabre than a Dooku Captured plot, and for once I hope that is something we can all agree on.

(For that matter, I'd rather a black lightsabre than the lightsabre resistant swords of KOTOR.)

Let's not get dragged into an Clone Wars canon debate, as that is a nightmare. Just in this particular instance, I feel we have to accept that ideas coming straight from GL have a certain increased credibility.


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Last edited by Ushgarak on Jan 28th, 2010 at 06:07 PM

Old Post Jan 28th, 2010 03:36 PM
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