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A Stupid Argument
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Deadline
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by -Pr-

it isn't a cop out. batman is written to be a complex, lifelike character. he shouldn't just decide to start killing one day.


Yea hes complex and people also behave in a certain way to further the plot.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by -Pr-

batman sees differences between beings. he's stated as such.


So wait somebody says something in a comicbook and you believe it hook line and sinker? I don't care what he said it doesn't make sense just because a lifeform is different to a human being doesn't make it ok.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by -Pr-

batman has saved more lives than joker has taken, both directly and indirectly.



Ok i'll repeat myself again. He would have saved more people if he killed the Joker.


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Old Post Aug 21st, 2010 08:46 PM
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Tzeentch
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by -Pr-
batman has been called on it before, and he's explained why he doesn't kill.

and the fact of the matter is that for all the people joker has killed, batman has saved more people being on the streets and in the JLA than the Joker has killled.


It's a comic book. Batman isn't explaining anything, it's the writers of the comic trying to justify his actions, not Batman, the writers. I keep trying to say, I'm not talking about there in-universe explanation, I don't care about what they have to say in-universe. I'm looking at it from a real life perspective.


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Old Post Aug 21st, 2010 08:49 PM
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-Pr-
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Deadline
Yea hes complex and people also behave in a certain way to further the plot.



So wait somebody says something in a comicbook and you believe it hook line and sinker? I don't care what he said it doesn't make sense just because a lifeform is different to a human being doesn't make it ok.




Ok i'll repeat myself again. He would have saved more people if he killed the Joker.


his plots work fine without him crossing the line and killing a human being.

don't be silly.

it does to batman. and me. it's relative, not definitive.

no. he would have saved all the people joker might have killed, but his absence from the JLA would have caused the deaths of millions. he keeps joker alive, thousands die. he kills joker, millions die, again through direct and indirect means.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
It's a comic book. Batman isn't explaining anything, it's the writers of the comic trying to justify his actions, not Batman, the writers. I keep trying to say, I'm not talking about there in-universe explanation, I don't care about what they have to say in-universe. I'm looking at it from a real life perspective.


why? im genuinely asking.


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Old Post Aug 21st, 2010 08:49 PM
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Deadline
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by -Pr-
his plots work fine without him crossing the line and killing a human being.


Yea they do we keep seeing Joker all the time.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by -Pr-

don't be silly.


Says the guy who doesn't know the difference between comicbook logic and the real world.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by -Pr-

it does to batman. and me. it's relative, not definitive.


Let see if I can get this straight its ok to kill other lifeforms because they are different to human beings. So if a lifeform was intelligent like a human had emotions and felt pain it would be ok to kill it?

You might as well argue its ok to kill people from different races.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by -Pr-

no. he would have saved all the people joker might have killed, but his absence from the JLA would have caused the deaths of millions. he keeps joker alive, thousands die. he kills joker, millions die, again through direct and indirect means.



Are you really trying to stretch this shit? Absence from the JLA, what the hell has that got to do with him killing the Joker? How the hell would more people die if he killed the Joker?


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Last edited by Deadline on Aug 21st, 2010 at 09:00 PM

Old Post Aug 21st, 2010 08:58 PM
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-Pr-
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Deadline
Says the guy who doesn't know the difference between comicbook logic and the real world.


great, bash me for no reason. nice.

quote:
Let see if I can get this straight its ok to kill other lifeforms because they are different to human beings. So if a lifeform was intelligent like a human had emotions and felt pain it would be ok to kill it?


to some people, yes. you're making it seem like batman is some stone cold killer of everything but humans. he isn't. he just prizes human life above all.

quote:
You might as well argue its ok to kill people from different races.


not NEARLY the same thing.

quote:
Are you really trying to stretch this shit? Absence from the JLA, what the hell has that got to do with him killing the Joker? How the hell would more people die if he killed the Joker?


because he'd be a fugitive. he wouldn't be in the JLA anymore if he killed Joker. He wouldn't save all the people he'd usually save if he were part of the team.

He'd be a wanted man, by both friends and the Gotham police, and millions would suffer for it.


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Old Post Aug 21st, 2010 09:04 PM
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Dr Mystery
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by -Pr-
he wouldn't be in the JLA anymore if he killed Joker.


How so? In your previous posts you were making it sound like there was some sort of story detailing how millions would die if Batman were no longer a member of the JLA. Does such a storyline exist? Genuine question.


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Old Post Aug 21st, 2010 09:50 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Dr Mystery
How so? In your previous posts you were making it sound like there was some sort of story detailing how millions would die if Batman were no longer a member of the JLA. Does such a storyline exist? Genuine question.


Batman wouldn't be allowed in the JLA. The days of the JLA killing their villains (even rarely) are no more, and he would most likely be expelled (and hunted/captured).

Look at what Batman did while part of the JLA. He was integral in stopping the White Martians. He was a huge part of the "Heaven's Ladder" story. Final Crisis. Infinite Crisis (though Brother Eye was his own creation), World War III.

How many losses would the JLA have incurred if not for Batman. I know the others do their part and so on, but so does Batman. Now, if he'd killed Joker and been hunted/locked up, who would have saved the JLA.

Yes, you can say "well it's comics, they'd find a way" but that doesn't really address the point, imo. "In universe", Batman is too important to the League and to Gotham.

Look at Dick Grayson's tenure as Batman for example. He'd been good, sure, but he's no Bruce.


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Old Post Aug 21st, 2010 10:34 PM
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Omega Vision
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I think people need to come off from the fixation on Batman sparing Joker. To my knowledge Batman has only made one exception to the no-killing rule, and that's when he attempted to kill Darkseid in Final Crisis. And Darkseid was threatening to destroy ALL Reality. That gives you an idea of just what it takes to make Batman break his vow.

Joker killing a few thousand just doesn't cut it. It will never be enough to push Batman to murdering the Joker.


__________________

“Where the longleaf pines are whispering
to him who loved them so.
Where the faint murmurs now dwindling
echo o’er tide and shore."

-A Grave Epitaph in Santa Rosa County, Florida; I wish I could remember the man's name.

Old Post Aug 21st, 2010 10:42 PM
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Tzeentch
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by -Pr-
why? im genuinely asking.


Long story short, it's because I think the comic books are stupid. The writing is stupid, the characters are stupid, their justifications for doing what they do, is stupid. It's all just so dumb to me. Yeah, "in-universe" it makes sense for Batman to not kill for the reasons you listed above, but I think it's stupid that the DC universe will hate Batman for killing people, and that the JLA have an unrealistic "no-kill" policy. It's like, for example, I remember reading The Killing Joke for the first time a few years back, and I thought it was just the dumbest thing that Gordon threatened to kill Batman if he killed The Joker. Yes, Gordon gave a pretty speech justifying why he did it, and sure in the universe I guess it makes sense, but I don't live in-universe. I'm a reader looking in from the outside, living in the real world, and to me, it's just stupid. Batman runs around every night, breaking and entering, trespassing, destroying public property, stealing, assault, battery, kidnapping (which is a felony, and not just a felony, legally Police are expected to use deadly force if they find someone in the middle of kidnapping, that's how serious it is), interrogation, all of these crimes, and he's been doing it for years. But where does Gordon draw the line? "I can't allow you to kill this mass murderer." Batman's been committing crimes for years, but he tries to do something that would permanently save lives,and now he's wrong?When I read that, I felt like it was just the most idiotic thing on the planet. But it's not just Batman. Superman does it, everyone in the JLA, Marvel heroes too. It's stupid that Iron Man has done all of these horrible things that have resulted in more horrible things, and yet Captain America comes back and instantly their best buddies and team mates again? I guarantee you that in a few months it'll be like Civil War never happened, and they were never enemies. It'll be just like old times. I think it's stupid that Marvel can go and erase 50 years of continuity for Spiderman. Did they write up a justification for Spidey doing such a dumb thing? Yeah. And in-universe, it makes sense. But that doesn't mean it's not stupid out of universe.

So that's what it ultimately comes down to, and that's why I said that it's all pointless, because it's subjective. If someone reads The Killing Joke, and they agree with Gordon's speech on their own moral level, then yeah it sounds heroic, and their certaintly entitled to feel that way. But not to me. I think the majority of the "heroes" in Marvel and DC do not act heroic at all. So why should I care about Batman's explanation?


__________________

"The Daemon lied with every breath. It could not help itself but to deceive and dismay, to riddle and ruin. The more we conversed, the closer I drew to one singularly ineluctable fact: I would gain no wisdom here."

Last edited by Tzeentch on Aug 22nd, 2010 at 12:31 AM

Old Post Aug 22nd, 2010 12:29 AM
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Tzeentch
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Omega Vision
I think people need to come off from the fixation on Batman sparing Joker. To my knowledge Batman has only made one exception to the no-killing rule, and that's when he attempted to kill Darkseid in Final Crisis. And Darkseid was threatening to destroy ALL Reality. That gives you an idea of just what it takes to make Batman break his vow.

Joker killing a few thousand just doesn't cut it. It will never be enough to push Batman to murdering the Joker.


So what are you saying here? "Well it's never gonna change so why discuss it"? That doesn't make sense to me.


__________________

"The Daemon lied with every breath. It could not help itself but to deceive and dismay, to riddle and ruin. The more we conversed, the closer I drew to one singularly ineluctable fact: I would gain no wisdom here."

Old Post Aug 22nd, 2010 12:29 AM
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-Pr-
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
Long story short, it's because I think the comic books are stupid. The writing is stupid, the characters are stupid, their justifications for doing what they do, is stupid. It's all just so dumb to me. Yeah, "in-universe" it makes sense for Batman to not kill for the reasons you listed above, but I think it's stupid that the DC universe will hate Batman for killing people, and that the JLA have an unrealistic "no-kill" policy. It's like, for example, I remember reading The Killing Joke for the first time a few years back, and I thought it was just the dumbest thing that Gordon threatened to kill Batman if he killed The Joker. Yes, Gordon gave a pretty speech justifying why he did it, and sure in the universe I guess it makes sense, but I don't live in-universe. I'm a reader looking in from the outside, living in the real world, and to me, it's just stupid. Batman runs around every night, breaking and entering, trespassing, destroying public property, stealing, assault, battery, kidnapping (which is a felony, and not just a felony, legally Police are expected to use deadly force if they find someone in the middle of kidnapping, that's how serious it is), interrogation, all of these crimes, and he's been doing it for years. But where does Gordon draw the line? "I can't allow you to kill this mass murderer." Batman's been committing crimes for years, but he tries to do something that would permanently save lives,and now he's wrong?When I read that, I felt like it was just the most idiotic thing on the planet. But it's not just Batman. Superman does it, everyone in the JLA, Marvel heroes too. It's stupid that Iron Man has done all of these horrible things that have resulted in more horrible things, and yet Captain America comes back and instantly their best buddies and team mates again? I guarantee you that in a few months it'll be like Civil War never happened, and they were never enemies. It'll be just like old times. I think it's stupid that Marvel can go and erase 50 years of continuity for Spiderman. Did they write up a justification for Spidey doing such a dumb thing? Yeah. And in-universe, it makes sense. But that doesn't mean it's not stupid out of universe.

So that's what it ultimately comes down to, and that's why I said that it's all pointless, because it's subjective. If someone reads The Killing Joke, and they agree with Gordon's speech on their own moral level, then yeah it sounds heroic, and their certaintly entitled to feel that way. But not to me. I think the majority of the "heroes" in Marvel and DC do not act heroic at all. So why should I care about Batman's explanation?


if you don't like comics, though, why argue it?

I see where you're coming from, and yes, were i in Batman's position Joker would be dead, but is it outside the realm of possibility that some people just refuse to take lives no matter the cost?

That morality exists in our world too. It isn't just a fictional construct, as i'm sure you know.


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Old Post Aug 22nd, 2010 03:31 AM
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Juk3n
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Batman would be a better hero if he killed joker. Yes he would god damn it, how many lives would he have saved if he had? What possible use to society is Joker? Croc? Two-face? What possible benefit is there to keep someone alive who kills because they love the sound of screaming?

Villains would have a lot more fear struck into there hearts if they just heard Batman smoked Joker and Croc.


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Old Post Aug 22nd, 2010 10:51 AM
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Omega Vision
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
So what are you saying here? "Well it's never gonna change so why discuss it"? That doesn't make sense to me.

I'm saying stop harping on it.


__________________

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to him who loved them so.
Where the faint murmurs now dwindling
echo o’er tide and shore."

-A Grave Epitaph in Santa Rosa County, Florida; I wish I could remember the man's name.

Old Post Aug 22nd, 2010 03:22 PM
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-Pr-
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Juk3n
Batman would be a better hero if he killed joker. Yes he would god damn it, how many lives would he have saved if he had? What possible use to society is Joker? Croc? Two-face? What possible benefit is there to keep someone alive who kills because they love the sound of screaming?

Villains would have a lot more fear struck into there hearts if they just heard Batman smoked Joker and Croc.


while you might like him more, i don't think you can definitively say he would be a "better hero" if he killed joker.


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Old Post Aug 22nd, 2010 07:32 PM
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Tzeentch
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by -Pr-
[B]if you don't like comics, though, why argue it?


It's just something to talk about, for me. It's like, watching a movie that ends up sucking, and then talking about it afterward. And I didn't always dislike comics lol. Spiderman and the Hulk are my favorite characters and I've consistently read their series' since the mid 90's. I only recently stopped reading the main stream comics. Now I just read graphic novels and manga. -shrug-

quote:
I see where you're coming from, and yes, were i in Batman's position Joker would be dead, but is it outside the realm of possibility that some people just refuse to take lives no matter the cost?

That morality exists in our world too. It isn't just a fictional construct, as i'm sure you know.


Oh yeah totally. And I mean, I don't view people like that as inferior or anything, I disagree with that ideology but, to each his own, I guess.

quote:
I'm saying stop harping on it.


Why? You've never discussed something that you don't like?


__________________

"The Daemon lied with every breath. It could not help itself but to deceive and dismay, to riddle and ruin. The more we conversed, the closer I drew to one singularly ineluctable fact: I would gain no wisdom here."

Old Post Aug 23rd, 2010 05:26 AM
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Kazenji
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
I only recently stopped reading the main stream comics. Now I just read graphic novels and manga. -shrug-


I remember you saying something along the lines of it feelslike i've read the same stuff again when it comes to the newer Spider-Man comics

Strange because from the recent stories i've been reading from it to do with the Gauntlet its new to me.


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Old Post Aug 23rd, 2010 12:39 PM
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Tzeentch
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I haven't picked up a Spidey comic since last December, so, I'm not upto date on what's going on.

But, yeah one of the reasons I don't read them anymore is because the plots are redundant.


__________________

"The Daemon lied with every breath. It could not help itself but to deceive and dismay, to riddle and ruin. The more we conversed, the closer I drew to one singularly ineluctable fact: I would gain no wisdom here."

Old Post Aug 23rd, 2010 09:17 PM
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-Pr-
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
It's just something to talk about, for me. It's like, watching a movie that ends up sucking, and then talking about it afterward. And I didn't always dislike comics lol. Spiderman and the Hulk are my favorite characters and I've consistently read their series' since the mid 90's. I only recently stopped reading the main stream comics. Now I just read graphic novels and manga. -shrug-



Oh yeah totally. And I mean, I don't view people like that as inferior or anything, I disagree with that ideology but, to each his own, I guess.



Why? You've never discussed something that you don't like?


you really should try some dc stuff. as marvel has been getting progressively worse with stuff like hulk, dc has been getting progressively better with green lantern and the like. some good stuff there.


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Old Post Aug 24th, 2010 06:09 AM
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Tzeentch
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by -Pr-
you really should try some dc stuff. as marvel has been getting progressively worse with stuff like hulk, dc has been getting progressively better with green lantern and the like. some good stuff there.
I've been heavily considering it. I read Identity Crisis for the first time a few weeks ago; was absolutely blown away. Really just thinking of which series to start following.


__________________

"The Daemon lied with every breath. It could not help itself but to deceive and dismay, to riddle and ruin. The more we conversed, the closer I drew to one singularly ineluctable fact: I would gain no wisdom here."

Old Post Aug 24th, 2010 08:38 AM
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-Pr-
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
I've been heavily considering it. I read Identity Crisis for the first time a few weeks ago; was absolutely blown away. Really just thinking of which series to start following.


The same guy who did Identity Crisis did some work on JLA. His arc was the "Tornado's Path". A bit slow but i really liked it.


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Old Post Aug 24th, 2010 08:47 AM
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