Visual "Solidity" -- Who are the all time best artists at portraying this?
(A.k.a "Comicdom's most ... tactile pencillers" ?)
There are comicbook artists and then there are comic book artists.
Some are acknowledged or unacknowledged masters of making a viewer "feel" as if they are present, of drawing a viewer into the scene and its actions almost without the viewer's knowledge.
If they draw a character grabbing somebody, you "feel" the grip.
If they feature that character pulling their fist back to strike, you all but pull away from the comic expecting the impact in the next panel.
It is hard to convey what I mean because there are so few that can do this. I think that I myself have experienced the impression I'm trying to describe only 3-5 times in all my years of reading. Most recently yesterday.
Would like to know what kind of talent I've been missing, if any.
I've got at least 3 submissions in mind, the first of which is multi-panel.
Strongly encourage people to submit the best instances THEY'VE found so we can compare notes.
First up, Mike Vosburg, who features Jen Walters fighting Man-Elephant, way back in the 17th edition of her first magazine ...
The following scan, especially the 2nd panel of it, should make nearly perfectly clear what I mean by conveying "weight" of art and visuals.
I'm not sure I've seen even Jack Kirby do it better than it was done here, the man I thought (and still largely think) was the champion at this sort of thing:
Seriously, virtually anything and everything he drew snap-crackle-popped with energy (eg, it's not for nothing artists still try to duplicate his Kirby Dots, generally missing the whole point of using negative space).
Funny thing is, if you look at his pics carefully, you find that his depiction of muscle anatomy was terrible! On purpose? Not sure, because the way he did draw his figures, all lines went into conveying speed, action, impact, even if correct anatomy was sacrificed in the process.
Anyway, he's dead (RIP, King). The next (living) candidate who comes to my mind, who does this "power drawing" best might be Ed McGuinnes, where everyone (and everything) looks juiced on steroids.
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Shinier than a speeding bullet.
Kirby is a great choice, and I'm glad to see the first response to my thread corroborates that, which I mentioned myself a bit earlier.
McGuinness? Hmm ... provide some evidence for this one, please --
definitely NOT seeing this guy as being in the "tactile tier", but am open to being shown something to change my mind.
Had to look up what you were referring to when you mentioned "Kirby dots". Not sure I even heard this term before you mentioned it; glad there's a Wikipedia to clarify.
Again, though, for conveying a sense of physical weight and what an action concretely "feels" like, I will certainly back the choice of Jack "King" Kirby.
Fact, as promised, I'll go further and give an example of some work of his that ILLUSTRATES the concept.
I think no one will be able to post anything that far exceeds what Kirby's "GraviGuard" character evokes here through Kirby's details of body position and handling of head and limb by either subordinate character OR conquering villain. The following is the sort of visually-convincing domination even a 9 year-old can INSTINCTIVELY appreciate:
Kirby's Superman! Oddly enough, I wasn't crazy about his Superman (nor his Spider-Man), but yes, I think the scan highlights what you're saying: there is something "weighty" about it (though whenever characters do these massive weight/gravity things, I always wonder what's keeping the ground/floor together).
When I thought of McGuinnes I was leafing through his OWAW work. Probably the best example is when sundipped Superman is pushing Warworld. McG even uses (what appear to be) Kirby dots, though his don't invoke the negative-space effect.
__________________
Shinier than a speeding bullet.
I've always looked favourably upon Frank Quitely. Once I got past my young self's knee-jerk reaction (that his people look too bloated) it didn't take long before I realized how incredible he was at showing momentum. Most of his fight-scenes look really realistic and organic and his Batman is some of the best stuff I've ever seen.
I should have made it a requirement for people to post a panel or two to go along with their commentary.
I genuinely appreciate the feedback I've gotten so far; it's just hard to fully appreciate that feedback when nobody is presenting anything for people to actually LOOK at and judge, the primary premise of this thread.
At any rate, I promised at least 3 submissions of my own.
Mike Vosburg and his "Man Elephant versus Jen Walters She-Hulk" was submission 1.
Jack Kirby and his "Gravi-Guard G versus pre-Crisis Superman" was submission 2.
The 3rd artist to impress me in the field (of what I guess we'll term "tactile" visual communication) is Jamal Igle.
Note that this submission is a cropped shot. The full version actually lacks the aesthetics I'd come to appreciate from the other artists that worked on the series.
Occurs to me I should be providing reference information for my submissions, so that people reading this can track down the actual comics these are featured in if they want.
Here's that info, along with a URL rendition of just about everything I've featured so far, along with some bonus images for better story context.
URLs inclusion guards a thread from info-loss due to Internet Archiving.
Note that noted Silver Age artist Al Plastino may have had some hand in the work I thought was Kirby's alone, at least to judge from the Wiki page featured for the magazine that was originally published in.
3. Kara Zor-el versus Silver Banshee, Shea Stadium
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Source: Savage She Hulk #17, Volume 1
Writer: David Anthony Kraft
Penciller: Mike Vosburg
Date: June 1981
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http://marvel.wikia.com/Savage_She-Hulk_Vol_1_17
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Source: Forever People #1, Volume 1
Writer: Jack Kirby
Pencillers: Jack Kirby and Al Plastino
Inker: Vince Colletta
Date: March 1971
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http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Forever_People_Vol_1_1
Thanks for the "Our Worlds at War" McGuinness scan, Mindship.
I can see, after looking up the term on Wikipedia, what you meant by Kirby-esque "dots" appearing there.
I'd forgotten, I'm sure I've seen that several times before, but I'd forgotten Superman appeared so ... "big" there.
He could pass for HULK's younger brother rendered that way ...
Not quite sure I fully understand the concept of "negative space" as you and the Wikipedia writers are using the term.
They mention the goblet/silhouette illusion as an example; I'm wondering if something intended for camouflage or the like would also suffice.
For instance ...?
(attachment is a zebra photo displayed on MSN today)
Thought about what you said about anatomy, Mindship.
Think the reason the 3 that inspired this thread do so is because they are intuitive.
I'll point out what I find special about each in turn and in depth now.
3. Kara Zor-el versus Silver Banshee, Shea Stadium
This scene is remarkable for how well it captures instinctive response.
There's no sense of artificial posing. What you see from Kara is nearly exactly what you see from anyone under sudden attack from a source coming straight to the face. One arm instantly positions its hand as a shield close to the face itself, the other extends quickly outward to block or push away the attacker. Eyelids shut, chin goes down close to chest if it can. The only major departure from this classic response is that Kara holds her shielding hand against her ear, perfectly appropriate under the circumstances, a vain attempt to block the sonic nature of Banshee's assault. Banshee herself is a grasping, screeching, muscular harpy-like figure. Her flexed bicep implies her physical strength, her other hand, though, stretching the material of Supergirl's outfit as she grabs at Kara's chest, looks like the claw of some giant bird of prey.
The detail that makes this, though, is Kara's hand on Banshee's forehead, striving desperately to keep that dangerous cawing mouth from either neck or ears. It's a masterpiece in the way it captures the painful, desperate intimacy of close-quarters struggle.
2. Man-Elephant (Manfred Haller of Haller Hydraulics) versus Jen Walters
Strangest encounter I've seen this month. Singular for the degree of grappling intimacy shown with a female combatant. Typical for Hulk.
Maybe. Not typical for She-Hulk. Odd to say, but, never saw an encounter that depended on pure physical strength and practically no skill from a lady in comics to this extent before. Unthinkable that this is from the 1970s or early 80s somehow ...
Again, though, intuitive and easy to reason through.
Actions of participants don't seem particularly artificial or forced.
An odd sense of danger and security co-existing.
Muted danger. Controlled danger. Threats only serious if accident occurs, no one really intending to cause permanent fatal injury to the other.
Yet still serious because that possibility exists.
Like children at play. Or boxers in a clench.
And yes there is one more interpretation, but boxers in a clinch is best because the man-elephant here is initiating this strange strength contest to lessen the dangers of She-Hulk's formidable but nearly unguardable strikes, just as a boxer finding himself reeling from a punch seeks to grab his attacker and bring them in closer, not get distance at all. Awkward, anxiety-producing. Animal imagery AND some of the motifs of the Banshee entry with Kara. That trunk wrapping around near Jen's neck like a python -- or so she thinks -- elephant's tusks or teeth near her throat, arms trying to pull away even as hands grab in Jen's case, arms trying to pull in closer as hands grab in Man-Elephant's.
There is NOT the same degree of desperation in this fight as Kara's.
Banshee is a far more Death-like figure than Haller.
Her face even looks like a painted skull.
And the dialogue is actually reassuring in Jen's encounter.
But Jen's scene IS unsettling -- and compelling -- as comic artwork.
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Source: Savage She Hulk #17, Volume 1
Writer: David Anthony Kraft
Penciller: Mike Vosburg
Date: June 1981
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ http://marvel.wikia.com/Savage_She-Hulk_Vol_1_17
Between this selection and the Mike Vosburg one, it's hard to choose a winner. The full sequence encounter of She-Hulk and Haller I'm inclined to give the nod to. Single panel versus single panel, Kirby might take it. Still deciding.
The feel of this one is on a different level of the others still.
The sheer amount of pain communicated in the Supergirl/Banshee encounter is intense, not quite life and death, but so acute it could be confused for that, especially with all the death imagery inherent in Banshee's character, appearance, and demeanor.
Haller versus Jen isn't on that level. Close, personal, physical, and some nameless hard-to-place sense of dread there definitely, I imagine quite a few female viewers would be made uncomfortable by what the scene subconsciously hints, but less truly malicious.
Unlike Banshee, Haller doesn't want to kill Jen, or, really, harm her at all.
This Forever People entry conveys a different mindset still.
The desperation, if there is any, is all one-sided.
Kara was in a hurry to take Banshee down, and with good reason.
Haller, meanwhile, sought out his squeeze play because he realized he could not endure a formal striking engagement with Jen, and Jen, for her part, realized Haller had just enough on his side to take her down if she got complacent.
Double-G here (that is, the GraviGuard) has no such concerns. There is absolute confidence in his demeanor. He orders his friends to worry with the others and determines to deal with Superman all by himself. The visual language could scarcely be more supportive. His knee is on Superman's chest as Superman's right hand vainly grabs DG's shoulder to try to push him off.
DG meanwhile, merely makes a fist and in the next panel starts shoving his forearm steadily toward Superman's throat.
Universal symbol of power the tightly fisted arm; it doesn't even have to DO anything to convey the idea, it communicates all on its own.
Complete domination, this; all Superman can do is close his eyes from pain as his fingers pleadingly grab DG's arm, asking him to go no further.
Strange in this 2nd panel, surely strange to Superman fans of today, at least, is that Superman does not employ his well-known power of heat vision. In fact, in this story, Superman is so helpless that he will require the aid of the youths he saved from the gas attack moments earlier to get this goon off of him.
But heat vision is something that requires a moment of full focus and concentration. The pain and weight of the GraviGuard are interfering with that. Longtime Silver Age readers may even recall that, during some periods of the 60s and 70s, heavy gravity fields all on their own could rob Superman of his range of powers, and this is precisely what Darkseid's officer here controls.
As a relate-able concept, though, the situation needs little explanation.
Scarcely anyone who has been on the losing end of a roughhouse can fail to appreciate how helpless a man feels in that position.
Kirby, a youth who grew up fighting in many rooftop gang rumbles, would have been very familiar with this indeed.
The most powerful element, again, perhaps, is the outstretched hand.
In Kara's case it belonged to the defender, striving to keep attacker at arm's length. Here it belongs to attacker, firmly grasping Superman's jaw, tilting his head back, fully controlling the Man of Steel's movement and action along the ground.
Slow, steady, masterful.
Although he has competition, no one will have to fight me to see that Kirby stays in the top 3 ...
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Source: Forever People #1, Volume 1
Writer: Jack Kirby
Pencillers: Jack Kirby and Al Plastino
Inker: Vince Colletta
Date: March 1971
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Forever_People_Vol_1_1
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