You ignored the part where i said that sometimes it didn't seem to be true. Because it's not like Validus can take on 12 superboy(s) on an average day. Like, at all. Not to mention that 3 Superboy level characters KOed Validus. Bronze Age Superboy level. Meaning he's lower than Silver Age (i actually already explained this, but im repeating myself since everything is getting ignored)
And that's what....the only thing that can even put Validus on skyfather level?
How about Validus not being able to break out of inertron no matter how hard he tried ( Adventure Comics #352):
Karate Kid (who doesn't even have any superhuman powers, but he has retarded martail arts, which honestly seem like herald level most times) literally broke Inertron as well in Superboy #231:
And the substance couldn't have been more powerful than inertron.
Ive referenced the inertron part already but it got ignored of course.
--------------
That aside though, you also ignored all my previous points and "proceeded" as if they weren't there. I knew something like this would happen which is why i didn't respond to you. I knew you're gonna ignore this.
Along with Darkseid creating and uncreating Validus. And Darkseid was a solid trans level character, pre crisis. As i already proved.
There's very little to say that Validus is a skyfather. Much less an Odin level skyfather. He's trans, always has been.
And Odin can handle Validus since he has much better feats. In case you're unaware let me know, and ill give you a list. He's had multiple fully universal feats.
Though im pretty sure all of the above is going to get ignored yet again. We wouldn't want Validus to look below skyfather now would we? Nah, we'll just use that single statement from Superboy and gauge his entire power based on it, while ignoring everything else.
Last edited by operator616 on Jul 31st, 2014 at 09:41 PM
Then you disagree with your own scans that sun eater was billions of times more powerful than Validus? Good.
Haha, what? It plainly states that its billions of times more powerful than LOSH and Fatal Five combined. It can't get any literal than that. Low skyfather? Based on gradual destruction of stars?
You are taking space cheese too seriously.
Considering I don't use space cheese as indication of power level, I don't give a shit about how it destroys galaxies or whatnot.
Wait what? Sun eaters are vulnerable inside their nucleus. That's how they are defeated nearly everytime. But now Superboy could have survived an explosion billions of times more powerful sun eater couldn't? Awesome.
Or Superboy is tougher than you realize.
Depowering has nothing to do with that.
Will do.
No, its just that. You have lots of excuses. I get it.
What? That bio is after COIE where he was creating universes.
The bio didn't mention that Time Trapper rivalled an amped Darkseid.
Hahaha, using ABC comparison at its finest. But I can do what you're trying to do too considering Orikal was captured by Troll King and couldn't escape from mere lava and would've died if Thor hadn't rescued him from that.
High showings? He routinely merked Superboy as flea, Mon-El couldn't even harm him on separate occassions and like that. Its his average.
I don't use comparisons when Mangog and Ego have never fought. But I like how you consider being compared to someone makes them automatically superior. So was Desak celestial level and King Thor killed a celestial level being merged with destroyer?
And Validus' average was far above Superboy who was stronger than Odin and Thor combined. So yeah, Mangos can't even lick Validus' boots.
Not really. Your opinions aren't facts.
Who the **** cares?
Show me Mangog doing that please. Even bronze age Superman was able to traverse under the infinite gravity of creation and survive the ****ing big bang.
Again, who gives a shit? Mangog has never even destroyed a planet and oneshotted Odin. Orikal has never done that either. I can list on and on.
Its as much of an average showing as Odin destroying a galaxy.
No, when I see you lowballing I say you're lowballing.
So, no reason to say he can do that to Validus. Good.
Seriously? You are becoming really obnoxious at this point.
So we agree that he can't do that to Validus? Good.
And?
This isn't anything personal.
Quit being a jackass.
I was laughing at you thinking you were actually right. Thor defeated Ego. So has BRB. So has several others. So?
he killed Mangog who stomped Orikal.
Oh really? How does Eternity exerting his whole power to destroy a single planet supports your point?
Different writers? And these Orikal/Mangog and whatever scans you're using aren't from different writers>
A different writers retconning it doesn't means the eye saying something altogether different was wrong. Either prove it was wrong or shut up.
No, it isn't. You have very inflated view on Odin's durability.
Even BA PC characters have retarded feats. Just before COIE, Superman and Supergirl fought Blackstarr who could literally reshape the universe. Guess what happened?
You mean like Superman didn't fight people like Maaldor and something? Weird, I thought he did.
Now you're being Bran.
One panel below.
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"I'm growing stronger with every moment." Considering Odin didn't feel any weaker when he returned to his body, I'm pretty sure Loki wasn't any weaker when he was stunned by Masterson Thor. Did I step on your toes, o great operator?
You're assuming he wasn't? Why?
You mean he pounded on Thor with mjolnir for nothing? Well. your excuses are getting more laughable.
That doesn't means it wasn't carried out in Thor 291, where Thor actually proved himself stronger.
I've no problems saying that Odin would beat Validus if he goes versatile. What I'm disputing is the wanking of characters like Mangog just because they happen to fight odin.
In average case, no it can't be.
And I'm talking about physical power. Why is it so hard for you to comprehend that someone might be better than your precious skyfathers in certain areas?
Well, that's enough power for Highfather to weaken a universal power to be overpowered by herald level attacks, don't you think?
Good.
Odin got drained by troll weaponry, Galactus was drained by Reed and Quasar. Tech is haxx in comics and NEW GOD Tech is really haxxx. Or did you forget Genesis?
Again with the circular logic. Darkseid was definitely universal there and Highfather still weakened him enough. So why don't you just stop denying what's in your face?
No, that's not skyfather term means. Destroying a galaxy or a universe means shit if you can't back it up by combat feats.
Well, I disagree.
Where did I say he is superior to Odin? And it certainly does in my eyes.
Hahahaha. Oh you and your high standards.
And where he casually beat Infinity Man? Color me shocked.
Oh really?
Nah, excuses.
Right.
The same Hela who gets routinely overpowered by Thor and stalemated by Enchantress? Bwahaha. Now I know you're WANKING marvel characters like your life depends upon it.
No, I don't read marvel comics for that purpose and neither have I lowballed any characters in this thread. But nice to see you whining like bran with the lowballing.
my only problem with using those inertron showings as a strength-gauge, is that i don't think you're considering their respective thicknesses(which is a very important variable.)
the inertron box that housed the miracle machine(which ultra-boy and superboy were stated to be able to break) was relatively thin: http://i.imgur.com/nHV8cxk.jpg
same coin, the inertron bonds that karate kid broke were extremely thin.
conversely, the inertron prison validus was housed in was enormous--mountain-like: http://i.imgur.com/v8o47xl.jpg
the showings you posted would only be applicable to val if the inertron in question was the same thickness as his prison--which it clearly wasn't.
especially when we know for sure that outside of a few low-end/PIS showings, silver age validus was consistently portrayed as far more powerful than silver age superboy-level beings. examples...
superboy hits val with a "full force" strike, which only succeeds in making val 'wince' a bit. superboy, however, was nearly KO'd by his own attack: http://i.imgur.com/wfwGYlz.jpg
superboy isn't the only being of that caliber whom validus stomped. here val tanks mon-el's strike, before grabbing/overpowering him(with super-speed, btw), and throwing him into the ground with such force that he was sent completely through the entire planet: http://i.imgur.com/vRYA2d4.jpg http://i.imgur.com/f8fqgCH.jpg
we also have val being completely unfazed by mon-el's punch(despite it being a cheap shot): http://i.imgur.com/hQEiITT.jpg
...and i guess that explains why it took a surprise attack from superboy+mon-el+ultra-boy just to 'topple' validus: http://i.imgur.com/NelebBO.jpg
and just for fun...
validus' who's who bio confirms that his strength is >>> a kryptonian's: http://i.imgur.com/OwmONwH.jpg "validus possesses strength and invulnerability FAR greater than that of a kryptonian in an earthly environment."
despite being weakened from a previous encounter with a sun-eater, validus battled yet another sun-eater until he forced it to retreat: http://i.imgur.com/gLvxHqA.jpg
yes, i am aware they were each 1/8 fragments of the 'prime' sun-eater, but even so, out of all the LoSH and F5 members who battled a sun-eater fragment, val is the only being who managed to fend one off--and he did so while weak. uber.
anyhow, none of the above changes my opinion regarding the outcome of this battle. i just mentioned that stuff because i didn't want anyone to misunderstand your post, and try claiming that silver age val was a sub-par feeb or somesuch.
__________________
"I am tired of Earth. These people.
I am tired of being caught in the tangle of their lives."
Last edited by Galan007 on Aug 1st, 2014 at 05:45 AM
Wait what? He said he was fullfilled for that moment. It was later that he realized that what he thought was his full power, it has actually waned since he slept.
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So he was fulfilled to a weaker power level, not at full power level even after he absorbed every one of beings and artifacts.
Here he directly states that he might have admired Supergirl's persistence once upon a time but now he didn't have the time to waste on her.
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Not to mention, your circumstantial evidence that in one series he couldn't control some people, and he controlled several billion daxamites means he was amped is ridiculously laughable. Guess Thomas depowered Odin against Celestials after all.
And you'll notice that amped Persuader's axe (which is equal to Mano's touch, which at best is planet busting) outright split it.
So that ought to help you understand that it wasn't literally billions of times. Though it did dwarf them. And it's still low skyfather at best.
You realize that the fact that the SE has a weakness in its nucleus (which is its core) is irrelevant here? Because Tharok specifically mentioned that the bomb will absorb all its power, so Superboy would be essentially tanking all its power. Same conclusion, Superboy's durability is apparently greater than SE's.
Here's a superman comic (pre-ZH), another SE of the original's caliber, where Wildfire, Lightning Lad and Superman blast their way through SE and hold their own, until they detonate it (and my problem isn't with the detonation, so don't come at me saying that "it's nucleus" it's with them holding their own and blasting it):
No, it's just you can't counter anything, so you say that it's an excuse. We get it.
Well actually the revelation wasn't at the time of COIE, it was after a year or so after that. Though your bio is after that. But that's not the point at all. Because even before that Time Trapper was considered a peer to Darkseid (the early '87 bio, which is before the revelation of Trapper's pocket, says that). And there, they said that his personal abilities weren't known.
With that said. You're missing the most important point. Darkseid is literally known best for GDS only. Where he was amped. That's why Infinite Man and Trapper were compared to him, since while amped he was a foe of their class.
Neither did the white witch mentioned that "not since amped Darkseid did i sense such power", she merely said Darkseid. But we know everyone is referring to GDS Darkseid. It's blatantly clear.
Though i guess Darkseid is above Odin only because of two statements comparing him to Time Trapper. Even though they're misinterpreted to begin with.
The flames was Orikal's weakness obviously. So it's weakness exploitation.
You're missing the point. You mentioned that Mangog gets felled by a punch of Thor's and then compare this to Validus no selling Superboy's punches. So you're saying that Mangog's average is getting felled by a punch of Thor right? I mean, for real?
I don't care that you don't use them.
That's really great that you think that Superboy is great than Thor and Odin combined physically. Which is just retarded. I already mentioned what Superboy's average is, and i can continue if you want, but im not gonna repeat myself. Though you're right that Mangos can't lick Validus' boots. Though we're talking about Mangog here.
My opinion are based on facts.
I do, though i can see why you think it's irrelevant. Since if it wasn't, then Validus wouldn't be comparable to Odin, which he isn't.
Doesn't mean that Mangog couldn't. Unless you think Mano is more powerful than him.
Superman traversing infinite gravity and surviving the big bang? You wouldn't happen to be referring to Action Comics #553-554 would you?
Because you do realize that he only held for a while and eventually died? It was outright stated that when Superman is subjected to the Big Bang even he could not survive:
And the only way Superman was resurrected was when in the altered Earth kids recreated the hero concept and people started believing in it, which returned Superman and the Earth to normality:
Superman couldn't survive the full big bang by any means. It was established in Showcase #61 that even Pre-Crisis Spectre can't survive the full power of the Big Bang, but you think Superman can?
BA Superman was = 2/3 SA Superman though, barring the time when he let his inhibitions off in Superman #321 or some other time iirc. Since 1/3 of his strength was permanently removed. And Superboy was unofficially depowered in turn. So 3 BA Superboy level characters KOing Validus doesn't look good for him.
I never said that he could. It's just you putting words on my mouth because you blindly jumped to lowball Odin/Mangog.
But just because Odin can't cut Validus from his power source like he did to Mangog, doesn't mean he can't overpower him.
Err, you realize they were later instances? Because i am well aware that Ego has quite an amount of low showings, that's why i initially said "at that time period". And Ego was portrayed as a galactic entity in that time period and it was in a Thor comic, so it's perfectly usable.
I thought you were saying he killed Orikal. But anyway, as always you're missing the context. Thor was only able to do that because it's from the inside. It was specifically attributed to that.
Because obviously Eternity wasn't using a planet busting attack against a supreme power. Just because all it did was destroy a planet, doesn't mean it's only a planet busting attack. It's sole reason was to blast Thanos into oblivion, not destroy the planet. Similar to how MM's intention wasn't to destroy the building with a multiverse busting attack but rather the Beyonder.
I said that because it's a weird instance HIGHLY inconsistent with what we've normally shown. Which is why i mentioned the different writers part.
Well even you must realize that it's a wtf. So im merely saying it's a possibility.
Yeah, Blackstarr was badass. It's a good showing. And Supergirl was holding her own against Blackstarr in her own solo series prior to that. Though Blackstarr ended owning herself in that comic.
Also, that wasn't before COIE, it was at the time of COIE. DC Comics Presents #86 was actually a tie-in to COIE. Which had something like 90 tie-ins.
Eh, remind me again when did Superman KO Maaldor? Because im pretty sure that Maaldor was casually laughing off Superman's punches. And Maaldor's power is pretty crazy but his durability isn't that great. He was threatening the whole multiverse in DC Comics Presents #72, yet was one-shotted by regular Krona in COIE iirc.
Is that somehow supposed to negate the fact that he didn't possess Odin's full powers?
By neglecting the context, you screwed up yet again. Deal with it.
Because Odin was teaching Thor not to defy him? He said something like "you're gonna come whether in chains or not". KOing Thor wouldn't really help with that. He wanted to beat him, and he did. That's what all this is. But in Abhi's dictionary it directly translates to something else.
No he didn't prove that he was stronger.
"my precious skyfathers".....? I have no problem admitting that certain non-skyfather characters are better than certain skyfathers in certain areas. But Validus being superior to Odin physically is not one of them.
Odin has tanked attacks that caused multi-galactic/universal damage, this is something Validus has never done. In fact, an amped Validus was already on his knees after several planet-level attacks from the Sun Eater. Just saying.
It's good you admit that Orion is herald level. For a second there, I thought you were gonna start wanking the shit out of PC Orion too. So that's progress.
Anyway, Highfather is trans level. Always has been. And he weakened Darkseid w/ ALE to a point where Orion overpowered him. That is all.
"Troll weaponry"? More like Orikal's.
And Galactus was drained also due to Johnny's power cosmic, who was transformed into a herald. And it was outright called something like "one of a time" device iirc. Unlike Desaad's Uni-canon which couldn't have been powerful enough to vaporize a skyfather, because you would think that with that kind of weapon they'd attack New Genesis which they didn't. Though they did have star-destroying weapons even pre-crisis from what i recall, nothing more than that really (Genesis is post-crisis).
Why do i stop denying what's in my face? Because ive actually read Highfather comics, enough to understand that he's not universal.
Yeah i know what it means. Though imagine if a cosmic entity ends up beating several skyfather characters, yet it's incapable of destroying a solar system. That be nonsense. Because the skyfathers whom he faced should have been weaker than normal. Same thing applies to SE. You can't have durability lower than Superboy, and destroy a galaxy star-by-star, yet billions of times more powerful than the Legion.
Instead of saying you disagree, you can provide a reason why.
On par or superior. Either way, it's not true
What about high standards?
He bfr'ed IM. And 1 issue prior, IM was getting beaten by Mantis though he eventually won. He got froze in ice which can supposedly freeze worlds; and tanked an anti-matter attack that can shatter a star system. Now that's impressive, but is it impressive in comparison with Odin? Certainly not. Not to mention that IM got stalemated and blown up by Devilance in the last issue of the series.
Yes really. that's exactly why he bfr'ed them away.
So if you do realize that, then you know it's irrelevant either way.
So now you resort to lowballing Hela instead of admitting that it's a similar showing to Odin and moving on. Even though i can easily bring up the fact that Hela easily owned Thor 4 issues prior to that. And was stalemating Pluto 9 issues later, and while Pluto does have low showings, pretty badly ones too, it was the same issue where he drained Thor. And im bringing up showings at that time period so they're more relevant; pretty sure Thor never overpowered Hela until Thor #354.
I didn't think the thickness was relevant even though i knew that someone would bring it up.
I already posted this in the post you quoted. You'll notice that in Superboy #231 Validus has been already restrained in non-thick inretron shackles and couldn't do anything about it:
And even in the first instance from Adventure Comics. Validus couldn't even dent it. You'd think that if he could break thin inertron (which he actually can't) he can at least dent his cell? Or at least keep pounding on it, breaking it piece by piece, until he makes a hole in his cell so that he could escape?
Those are valid questions.
Another thing is, inertron was supposed to be indestructible, like, literally. Whether it's an entire cell worth of inertron, or it's a small piece, you'd have to exert the same level of strength to break it.
Only 2 of those scans are silver age though.
And i don't think anybody here is denying that Validus is more powerful than PC Superboy or anyone on Superboy's level.
Though there's something i want to address.
The attack from those 3 KOed Validus, since we see him later restrained. The only possible explanation is that they KOed him but either way, they overpowered him.
And you're assuming that Mon-el is stronger than Superboy based on one statement, despite the fact that they've been always regarded as equals, and that same series says that they are. Mon-el and Superboy actually knocked each other out (proving that they're equals like they've always been) in Superboy #208 (which is a few dozen issues before your scan):
And that's the same thing with Ultra-Boy. He overpowered Superboy in Superboy #205, and Superboy outright stated that Ultra-boy's strength is "beyond comprehension":
So Ultra boy is far above Superboy too? Despite the fact that he's been cited as having "superboy level" strength multiple times something his on panel showings confirm.
Anyway, Validus got KOed by 3 Superboy level beings, and that is all to it.
Inapplicable. Since it was an amped Validus.
Tharok increased all of the Legion's/FF's abilities. It was even outright stated that Validus became more powerful:
SE was mentioned to have been billion of times more powerful than Legion + FF (Validus). Though it's most likely isn't literally billions of times more powerful, but certainly well above them.
Last edited by operator616 on Aug 1st, 2014 at 04:07 PM
the scan in no way does support your point. Like, at all.
All Darkseid was saying is that his powers waned over the millennium, which is why he stole Excalibur and the ord, after which he was "fulfilled" and then went on to steal Mordru's and TT/Controller's powers.
Anyway, i already posted all the facts, and it's blatantly clear that Darkseid was amped. And there's a bio implying that he was. Not that its needed at all.
Yeah, Darkseid suddenly gained planet-level mindrape, and he did that instantly. You do realize that Darkseid had nowhere near that kind of level power? not to mention he also suddenly acquired space-warps. Never mind the fact that the whole reason the New Genesis/Apokolips war started was when the Boom Tube was invented. If Darkseid could open space warps (planet level space warps) then why would he ask Metron to build boom tubes in the first place?
I really have to explain to you the most simplest of things don't i?
Your scan are literally 16 years apart.
While Validus couldn't break inertron at the same time period when Ultra-Boy and Superboy could (Adventure comics #352, #378, 379).
But you also blatantly ignored the part where Validus couldn't break out of inertron in the same comic where Karate Kid did.
You realize that Odin has much more appearances than Validus? So of course he'd have more low showings than Validus. I can even remember off the top of my head more low showings for Odin than Validus.
But anyone who compares Odin's average with Validus' must realize that Odin's is definitely superior.
Ill do this later, though id rather give you a list with issue #s. Since otherwise there'd be a lot of scans. Though if i have enough time ill post scans as well.
so karate kid is stronger than validus, iyo? or would you rather do the logical thing and just chalk it up to PIS?
given the size of validus' prison, no, i would not expect him to be able to damage it.
obviously it is not truly indestructible, otherwise ultra-boy and superboy wouldn't be able to break it. therefore the thickness of the inertron MUST play a factor in its inherent indestructibility.
brainiac's comment pertaining to the inertron box the MM was housed in is also worth mentioning: http://i.imgur.com/nHV8cxk.jpg "only the most cosmos-shaking emergency can get us to crack it out and turn it on again!" ie. he knew the inertron box *could* be broken, therefore he knew it was *not* truly indestructible.
the thread specifies "pre-crisis" validus. all of those scans are "pre-crisis".
well good. but why did you post those inertron scans, then? it certainly *seemed* like you were implying that superboy-level beings>validus, because they broke thin inertron, while val couldn't break thick inertron..?
if that was not your intention, then i apologize.
okay? it still took a surprise attack from all 3 of them at once to incapacitate him.
i'm not assuming anything. just pointing out a statement that superboy himself made. it's ultimately inconsequential to this debate though.
by a surprise attack from all 3 of them simultaneously, you mean? am i supposed to consider it a low-end showing when it takes THREE silver-age-superboy-level beings to incapacitate val with a cheap-shot attack? because frankly, i think it is an amazing testament to validus' durability.
had val not already been massively weakened prior to fending off that second sun-eater, i would agree that his amp played a factor... but he was, so i don't.
a mere 4 pages later, val manages to fend off the sun-eater that was about to kill projectra. she even commented that he was still wounded from his previous battle: http://i.imgur.com/gLvxHqA.jpg
so yeah, given val's weakened state i'd say the feat is quite applicable. though if you don't want to use that showing, it's fine with me--there is still more than enough evidence to prove that he was FAR superior to silver age kryptonian-level beings, after all(which is all i have been trying to clarify.)
__________________
"I am tired of Earth. These people.
I am tired of being caught in the tangle of their lives."
Last edited by Galan007 on Aug 1st, 2014 at 04:46 PM
It's one of those instances where KK's super-retarded martial arts kicks in, and KK becomes near Superboy level.
Agreed. Never denied that it's not truly indestructible, especially considering i referenced examples where it was broken.
Misunderstanding then. Because when you said "Silver Age" i thought you were referring to the specific era of the PC history (from late 50s till 1970, afterwards comes the bronze age till COIE). And only 2 of your scans were from that specific era (i distinguish between those 2 eras because Superboy/Superman were depowered at the end of SA, which is noteworthy since it's ultimately related to Validus' power level)
Though i guess you were using "silver age" in the sense that it's pre-crisis. So a small misunderstanding it is.
Nobody in their right mind should argue that Superboy-level > Validus. I was posting those showings to look at the whole picture. Because you've got people like Prof. McAbe, who literally look at one thing; the instances where Validus is shown to be far superior to Superboy, who in turn pulls a galaxy worth of planets (while ignoring all his other showings, which blatantly show that he doesn't operate on this level on average, some of which i already mentioned, and the same thing with Validus in turn as well). And with that reason, he's apparently saying that Validus is superior to Odin. Same with Lord of Brooklyn, who ignores all showings but the ones which make Validus shine.
Hell, i myself said multiple times in this same thread that Validus is above Superboy. Which is impressive, but let's not pretend as if this somehow puts him on Odin's level. So yes, it was definitely not my intention.
Cool, i just wanted to make sure that it's clear that all those 3 are Superboy-level beings who did that to Validus. Mon-el, Superboy, and Ultra-boy's (individual abilities) are regarded as peers most throughout the entire history.
Considering you yourself posted instances where Validus no sells Mon-el's attacks; and Superboy's even in the SA where he was stronger; i don't think that's true.
Either way, it goes to show how Validus compares to Odin.
I can see your point but one can easily disagree with it. Because you're assuming that his weakened state was enough to negate his amp even though no such thing was stated.
Especially considering that SE was confirmed to dwarf the whole Legion/Fatal Five, Validus included:
so per the specific verbiage used in that scene, val's amp was negated--or more accurately: it was exhausted.
and then the sun-eater fractionated its enormous power into 8 different components--and an 'exhausted' validus was powerful enough to fend off one of those components. this does not mean validus>a sun-eater fragment, however. it just means that he was able to put up enough of a fight that the sun-eater felt the need to retreat/regroup. still very impressive given the circumstances, though.
i agree. ergo my initial opinion on the outcome of this match.
__________________
"I am tired of Earth. These people.
I am tired of being caught in the tangle of their lives."
Last edited by Galan007 on Aug 1st, 2014 at 08:10 PM
I know what exhaust means. And exhaust doesn't mean to permanently lose a part of your energy. It means to become tired, and it doesn't last on a permanent basis, it's temporarily.
So the way i interpret that scene: Validus, amped, battles SE and is overwhelmed becoming exhausted and tired, then pulls himself together (while sustaining some wounds and without losing the amp) and goes on to battle the 1/8 part of it.
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree but that's honestly how i see it. And that's all ill say on this part of the subject
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