Gender: Male Location: Planning to take over the WORLD!
yes to the first part though each earth universe may in effect have their own multiverse. maybe. this book is one of the reasons i waited to give my impression of the dc-verse.
no to the second though. earth-prime is actually earth 33. it is a thinly failed version of US, the real world. it's the only world where the monitors wrote down the history of the dc-verse in the form of "fictional stories." the residents' thoughts are believed to become reality in other universes.
lol that is soooo f'n sweet. anyway, the new worlds (the new multiverse) were said to have come into being by spreading through HYPERTIME. as it stands, it is definitely a structured multiverse, bounded by the overvoid (source wall). everything else fits neatly within the bounds. now, does that mean this model will be used forever, bu every writer? lol no...... of course not. someone will come in and throw around the term omniverse, raise other inconsistencies, whatever. given the number of creative personages at dc who contributed to this effort, i think it safe to say this is and should be considered the definitive model of the current dcu. least imo.
Gender: Male Location: Planning to take over the WORLD!
yeah, that was an odd comment. i took that to mean that each of the individual universes could contain other universes within them, all bounded by the overvoid, of which there is only one. seems to be there is only one monitor sphere and maybe even only one limbo the way it is described. could be an infinite number of universes within the spheres though i guess. maybe?
a second thought--the idea of 'local multiverse' may also be a veiled nod to other comic universes--ie marvel. might just be a way of suggesting the cubes can't take them to other comic-verses. i think both interpretations are viable.
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Last edited by leonidas on Feb 2nd, 2015 at 04:29 PM
I didnt mean earth-prime, i meant prime-earth, home to the new 52 mainstream universe? Earth-Prime is home to superboy prime iirc. Besides the new earth pic showed the new 52 costumes.
I didnt mean earth-prime, i meant prime earth, the mainstream new 52 universe, in the guidebook they retconned it, turned prime-earth back to new-earth.
I dont know about you, but DC's obssession with 52 pretty much made them a laughing stock in pretty much everyother forum, youtubes going ballistic over DC's obssession, to the point DC had to disable their comments section. And Dans getting hate on facebook for it.
The premise (including mine) seems to be that by restricting a multiverse to 52 universes, DC is restricting creativity, creating an absurd multiverse, which doesnt align with any form of science, and also becoming susceptible to continuinty inconsistencies, as guidelines will be much harsh.
Gender: Male Location: Planning to take over the WORLD!
you mean earth 0? that's the mainstream dcu.
and for the rest--i think you know i don't follow other forums so can't really comment on their opinions. speaking for me, i think what's happening is genius. within each universe is room for practically infinite expansion. it sets up some easy to retain guidelines to PREVENT a colossal continuity screw up like has happened so many times in the past. alternate timelines can still easily be fit within different universes. i can't understand how anyone could say it limits creativity. there NEEDED to be some bounds. just look at the discussion we were having a couple weeks back. no one knew WHAT was going on. by creating a framework with loads of potential i think it keeps everyone from just....doing whatever they want at the COST of continuity. as has happened in dc too many times.
i'd love to here some of the arguments for being against the set up. it's funny--people b!tched about dc because it was too hard to follow, now it seem they're b!tching because someone has laid the groundwork for some organization. to me, he's brought in ideas that haven't been seen in YEARS, tied them together with new ideas and sparked potential for some great stories. i don't seem any limits imposed at all. he even managed to successfully (and not forcibly) bring back the coie and the pre-crisis mythos and come up with a way to viably have characters interact with them again through comics. don't think it gets much cooler than that.
not sure who all these people are who are against it and to each their own. but i think the multiversity has been remarkable on a number of levels. and the mystery worlds will undoubtedly play an important role in adding even greater scope to the setting.
Gender: Male Location: Planning to take over the WORLD!
well, like i said, not sure about other forum people, but after what you said about people not liking it, i did a little research. this is a great article and the comments seem to suggest a lot of people who like it....it also says some of the same things i said. heh not that THAT has anything to do with why i like it.....
Yes Earth 0, also known as Prime-Earth in the New 52.
How can there be infinite expansions on 52 universes? Infinity cannot fit into Finity, thats like me saying i can fit 100 boxes in 1 box. Creativity is restricted to 52 creations, 52 establised storylines. Thats limitation right there, restriction on additional potential stories and creation which can exist if the numbers of universes was increased; making a fixed set, automatically negates any potential, future possibility in creativity, instantly.
I dont know which people you're talking about, but the people who b!tched about dc, was because of that exact reason, it was too hard to follow, not because of the multiverse; but because of two reasons:
1) DC kept announcing New reboots: zero hour, final crisis, 52, infinite crisis, flashpoint; how do you expect anyone to stay consistently with DC, when DC has been constantly soft-rebooting reality continously; on top of that they even tied every solo series together in those respective soft-reboots....not a smart move, considering anyone who wants to get into DC has to now go back and read those major events, which they wont understand unless they keep going back. Now DC is doing the exact same thing with the New 52.
2) DC's lack of appreciation for their own guidelines. DC can wirl around the 52 universes all they like, but unless they stick to that number, they arent going to get any more respect than usual. Lately DC's swirled around infinite universes, neighbouring multiverse, omniverse etc etc, then they do a complete 180, and go back to 52 universes. I mean look at how inconsistent that is, in their action they've forgotten how large heaven is, they didnt include "nowhere", hyperspace, Original Earth 8 from Multiversity#1 and the home universe of the JL 3000.
Theres nothing wrong with a larger multiverse, look at the dark tower, demonbane, even freaking suggsverse (omegaverse), marvel(omniverse) etc etc....most people are easily reading or viewing these fictions without any trouble. This shows that the problem isnt a large cosmology but rather consistency and an easy continuity.
Marvel doesnt have a map, they have an index of terminologies and a huge cosmology, an omniverse, they can reference anything they like, universes, multiverses, hyperspace, negative zone etc etc, and there will never be any continuity trouble or inconsistency, why? because there is no limit, no physical depiction of their cosmology, no branded guideline for finity.
I read that link, seems like very few actually read the comic, judging by their comment, showing their desire to buy it. It still doesnt change the hate DC is getting from every other forum site there is, even Didios own facebook page. Anyway DC getting hate is now a norm anyway, theres no other expectation of them lately; i was hoping the new 52 would provide an opportunity, but clearly convergence crashing with multiversity, blew everything out of the water.
Except... This is a comic book, wherein the impossible becomes possible.
I refer you back to these panels(posted on the first page) which describe the original pre-Crisis Multiverse, as well as Monitor/Anti-Monitor: (please log in to view the image)
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As you can see, when the Primal Monitor detected the 'flaw' within itself(the infinite pre-Crisis Multiverse) it contained said flaw by "bottling it" to prevent further spread--this is how/why the Orrery of Worlds was created.
Point: infinite worlds/universes can, and did, exist within a seemingly finite structure. Comics.
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"I am tired of Earth. These people.
I am tired of being caught in the tangle of their lives."
Last edited by Galan007 on Feb 2nd, 2015 at 08:16 PM
Gender: Male Location: Planning to take over the WORLD!
but you CAN fit a 1000 into one--easily. there are an infinite amount of numbers between 1 and 0. between 0 and 0.1 even, and so on..... there can literally be an infinite number of dimensions in each earth iteration.
all of your fears (and apparently the fears of others) seem completely unsupported as yet--things aren't done. the way the series is selling also seems to suggest people are liking it. in reality, you've no idea (nor does anyone else) what the new stories based on this will be like. there is easily room for any type of story you can imagine though. we now know all fiction in dc is related and exists in stories. that in itself opens up avenues that haven't been opened in 30 years. i think you're also assuming the map is somehow to scale, which it clearly isn't. all the other places and concepts you mentioned may still be fit in, or may be fit in later. there is certainly room for them.
and the reason people have long denounced dc IS because of their cosmology and rebooting--it is those 2 things that DEFINE the dc history. now someone attempts to order things and you seem to think everyone hates it. i've never heard one person on this forum denounce it and the few other forums out there only make up a tiny fraction of readers so we'll have to wait to see how readers really feel about it. the whole reaction seems like a jumping of the gun to me, if indeed it is the way many feel. we also don't know yet how convergence will play out, so it seems pretty silly to me for people to be up in arms leaping to conclusions over what they've seen when the story isn't nearly complete.
as for marvel--they are bounded the same as dc, they just don't label the boundaries. and there are at least 3 different iterations of their cosmology that i can think of off the top of my head, and each is very different from the rest. read tales of the cap britain corp and you get a completely different take on marvel's cosmology from other series. dr strange has illustrated the multiverse and it's totally different from other descriptions (from reed, for instance, or from quasar's adventures). they use terms so interchangeably that it's almost impossible to discuss it. i have first-hand knowledge of that futility. terminology in marvel is basically useless and that is a conclusion almost everyone in the forum subscribes to.
anyway, i apologize to galan--this is off-topic i think. you clearly don't like what morrison is doing and see it as stifling creativity. i absolutely love it and think it will only SPUR creativity. the story isn't finished yet so i'll leave off this discussion for now. perez's ideas for coie was ALSO initially ridiculed and seen as impossible though and that worked out ok. people can think what they want of course, i just couldn't disagree more with the impression you're conveying.
if you want to continue the discussion that's fine, but maybe open a new thread for opinions so we don't tie galan's thread up anymore.
Series, perhaps not. Alternate earth though? Definitely yeah. It even featured an alternate version of her, after all. And the explanation offered for those co-existing Earths fits in with how the others where explained - that the Earths exist alongside each other (in another space/time continuum) vibrating at a different rate (which is why Barry was able to first cross into Earth-two, since he can tune-into and vibrate at any frequency).
Before Flash #123? Sure there were, here's Flash #116 outright designating dimension 24:
It should be noted that the term "Cosmos" was used to describe the whole of reality (basically, what we know now as the multiverse). There are lots of example that i can bring up to support that.
And regarding the metatextual part -- i can point out that All-Flash #14 (1940s) was a story where metatextuality took place first. Though not in the same sense which Gardner presented it in Flash #123. So i can see your point on that one. It's irrelevant to the point in question either way though.
btw, 4th dimension was also used differently in the golden age depending on the title. It wasn't always depicted as being a standalone dimension per se. In Green Lantern Quarterly (golden age GL) it was used as a sort of medium through which intangibility can be achieved. In Flash comics (1940s) it was mostly used as a medium through which the concept of teleportation takes place (though in another Flash comics, it was presented as being a standalone dimension with inhabitants of its own), in golden age Superman/AC, time travel; etc...
Well not exactly imo. this is Morrison's take on the multiverse, and of course the fact that he tried to explore the whole multiverse, is going to be very contradictory.
Taking only new 52 comics into account. Aside from the fact that titles such as Larfleeze, JLD, and PS merely "referenced" millions or infinite universes, there are clear depictions of universes which Morrison never mentioned. For example, the house of tuath-dan had a dimension of their own which they destroyed. Morrison never mentioned it. Current JLD arc featured a universe where time does not exist. Morrison never mentioned it. Teen Titans featured universes which Trigon destroyed/conquered. Morrison never mentioned them. etc...
You get my point? There are lots of writers, and any writer can create whatever he wishes in a random comic which contradicts Morrison's. So you can't really say "oh well, DC is back to 52 universes again" because of Morrison's comics. If we do that, you'll be going back and forth every week DC comics gets released.
Yeah. DC is too big to fit into a mere map or guidebook. And that's just 3+ years. Imagine what would happen in the next 10, or 20. It's an impossible task.
Don't get me wrong though; i love how Morrison organized everything and put a lot of thought into it along with details. Im just saying that he didn't take everything into account, probably on purpose. Because, again, it's impossible.
Definitely on purpose. He took the 'meat and potatoes' from every major event/continuity thus far and simplified it down as much as he could--ergo the relationship with Flash and whatnot. Paying homage to each and every piece of Multiverse-related-text ever published would be ridiculous--it could be an event in itself, ffs. Obviously he's not going to go that route.
People just need to stop nitpicking, and take this story for what it's worth. I mean, we know it's all bound to change when Convergence hits the shelves anyway, so getting upset over the cosmology it has established so far is a complete waste of time.
Frankly, Morrison has done a stupendous job in detailing his conception of the Multiverse so far. I really wish it would stick.
__________________
"I am tired of Earth. These people.
I am tired of being caught in the tangle of their lives."
From what i can see, it seems like the overvoid merely contained the multiverse after he sent in the monitor and the anti-monitor, in which case it didnt contain 52 universes out of infinite, but rather the remains of the multiverse after COIE.
Keyword is "boxes", we are talking about a structure here, not metaphysics :/ The guidebook has made it clear that the multiverse is a physical thing which can be contained; thus it becomes the same as fitting 100 boxes into a single small, or 1000 mansions inside one small mansion. It cannot work like that at all.
Im not gonna continue this topic either, but might i add Didio did infacts address the hate on DCEntertainment, he even said that convergence is being done as a way to appeal to those who are hating, as a way to apologize, explain and give back to the fans who are angry; Didio himself is recognizing this; its why convergence is acting like an entire reboot, which it probably will be.
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